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The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree


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It is pity to see the topic about Kurdistan closed just on the moment, when the Kakomaster pushed the button of most important question for armenians - it is a quaestion"What then, if Turkey will agree to accept the massacre of Armenians made in 1885-1924?"....There is 2 aspects - a)what must be then?b)what will be?

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I think there will be the staff something like the one Turkey already agreed ones Treaty of Sevres, 1920 declaring the existance of Armenia from Trabzon till Van... ARTICLE 88. Turkey, in accordance with the action already taken by the Allied Powers, hereby recognises Armenia as a free and independent State. ARTICLE 89. Turkey and Armenia as well as the other High Contracting Parties agree to submit to the arbitration of the President of the United States of America the question of the frontier to be fixed between Turkey and Armenia in the vilayets of Erzerum, Trebizond, Van and Bitlis, and to accept his decision thereupon, as well as any stipulations he may prescribe as to access for Armenia to the sea, and as to the demilitarisation of any portion of Turkish territory adjacent to the said frontier.As a map it will be seen like the one I put in link in my signature ....

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BELOW IS EXCERPTS FROM THE TREATY OF LAUSANNE WHICH OVERRULED AND SUPERSEDED THE TREATY OF SEVRES. YOU CAN FIND THE REST OF THE TEXT AT GREEK FOREIGN MINISTRY'S WEBPAGE @ www.mfa.gr TREATY OF LAUSANNE (24 July 1923)THE LAUSANNE CONFERENCE, which convened in order to revise the Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920), had been provided for in the Armistice of Mudania (11 October 1922). It lasted from 20 November 1922 to 24 July 1923, with a short break of two and a half months from February to April.Representatives of eight countries took part in the proceedings: Great Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Roumania, Serbia, Greece and Turkey. The United States also participated, as an observer.The British, French and Italian delegations were headed by their Foreign Ministers,1 while the delegations of Turkey and Greece were headed by Ismet Pasha2 and El. Venizelos respectively.3The Prime Ministers of France and Italy, Poincaré and Mussolini, attended the opening session of the conference, at the Casino Mont Benon in Lausanne. English, French and Italian were designated as the official languages for the remainder of the conference, held in the Hôtel du Chateau, Lausanne.In its final form, the Treaty of Lausanne consisted of 143 articles. Three conventions4 and two protocols were signed along with it. Although, in its final article, the Treaty laid down that its ratification was to begin as soon as possible, in practice this did not prove feasible until August 1924.The Treaty of Lausanne ceded to Turkey all the territory held by Greece in Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace5 (with Karagatch and the Arda-Evros triangle,6 Imbros, Tenedos and the Rabbit Islands, while sovereignty over the remaining islands of the Eastern Mediterranean passed to Greece,7 as specified in article 12. Finally, all Turkish titles and rights to the Dodecanese were transferred to Italy, along with the island of Castellorizo.8 In effect, Greece failed to fulfil the national claims which had been satisfied by the Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920).9 Venizelos, in a lengthy memorandum to the Allies (30 December 1918), had described in detail the distribution of the intrinsically Greek population which resided in areas adjacent to the Greek state.10 However, the Sèvres Peace Treaty was never ratified by the contracting parties, and thus it was never enforced. For Turkey, the Treaty of Sèvres signalled the end of the Ottoman Empire; for Greece, impoverished and without any help from its allies, it left the country exposed to the perils of Kemalist nationalism. As a result, three years later, it lost at Lausanne precisely what it had gained at Sèvres.

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voterAs Kakomeister's already showed Treaty of Sevres is a fiction and big armenian dream. But he's forgotten to state that the Treaty of Sevre have never been ratifed by Turkey. Even Dasnhak Armenia was made to refuse from it's signature.

Do you have a full text of that Alexandropolis act? At least whose signature are there Turkey and UdSSR?
LOL :D You know your own history too bad. The Treaty of Alexandropolis was signed by Dashnak goverment of Armenia and Turkey. Here is the full text of Treaty of Alexandropolis from armenian site.Also I'd offer you to look through Batumi TreatyThere were the same parties i.e. Dashnak goverment of Armenia and Turkey.According to these treaties Armenia had territory about 9-10 thousand sq. km. and population - 320 ths. people (One-third of the population were muslims).
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I know my history as much as need. I was asking to text of that agreement which havn't.But I know and thanks Stacker for link, now I am sure that it was only a military agreement that so called Aleksandrapol one just for "capitulation" after Turkey's agression, where is even written, that Turkey is allowed to make any military movements on teritory of armenia. Do you think that it would be an agreement, that will be in use? :lol: :lol: :lol: Moreover it is signed on 2 December by the guys who were already out of order, as the soviet revolution was already happened in armenia and it could be counted as only a declaration in name of saving their own life of guys who need to leave armenia, they couldn't be a representatives of Armenian as the dashnak goverment have already declared his abdiction at that time.The Batumi agreement was before the Sevr, so it couldn't be in game at all...Concerning the Kakomaister's text and non concret link to somewere don't know where in web page of greek foreighn ministry also says COMPLETELY nothig. But I can say that it is nice to see whom Turks prefere to bring as a authority for their deals "MUSSOLINI"... But where you found the name of that guy I wasn't able to find in Threaty of Lousan a name of Mussolini in text I found here http://www.hri.org/docs/treaties.html there are also the maps conserning the treaties...Kakoimaster I want to see the text about armenia and not about greece and turkey, which has nothing to do with armenia...What I know, Lousan has nothing to do with the agreement about eastern borders of Turkey, which have been made with Russia...

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Voter, you are right, I did include the incomplete web link, plus, it was not at Greek mfa, it was at Greek hri; namely www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/ or, you can find similar entries at www.bartleby.com/65/la/LausanneTr.html I imagine you can guess what I did to retrieve this; I typed 'Lausanne Treaty' in Yahoo, and opened one of the links, you probably did the same.About Armenia - Turkey, you know that Russia (turning into Soviet Union in 1917) quit war in the same year, and returned Kars, Ardahan, and Batumi to Turkey even though they were under Russian control in 1917. Couple of years later (probably between 1921-1923), Turkey returned Batumi to Russia as a reciprocal goodwill (this must be the Treaty of Gyumri, but I am not sure, I will find out). Obviously, the treaty of Gyumri was after 1920, when Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia was occupied & annexed by the Red Army. As a logical result, that treaty was signed by Turkey and Soviet Union, and Armenia (this time not because of Turkish fault), did not have any say because it was part of Soviet Russia. Because of all this, I don't understand why you keep asking me about any treaty between Armenia and Turkey. If anything exists, it would be after 1991, when Armenia gained its independence. If you are curious about treaties between Turkey and Russia, I am sure you guys can do a better job since I don't speak Armenian, neither Russian.

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A Treaty is just a contract between parties, just like a sales contract for a house, as an example. It binds the parties from the moment it is signed on. However, a Treaty does not garantee anything about what might happen in the future.My point is, land belongs to whoever has the power to take it, and can force upon the weaker partie to sign a new treaty. That's exactly what happened after the Sevres Treaty was signed when the situtation changed and the Alexandropol Treaty was forced upon us both by Russia on one side, and Turkey on the other side. Russian Bolcheviks were looking for a durable peace with Turkey on the southern borders on the Russain empire for they were busy fighting Denekin's White Russians at home. That's why those stupid russian just gave away OUR land to the Turks, without a fight.Russians are sometimes so stupid. They contributed actively, at then, to make Armenia as weak and small as they could. Now, Armenia is the last ally they can really count on, and it's the smallest of the former Soviet Republics.

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Do you think that it would be an agreement, that will be in use? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Well, no longer after Russia colonised Caucasus again in 1920-21. No one could guarantee that the Act wouldn't be in use if Russia just left Caucasus independent. Moreover, Armenian bordered mostly with Turkic states, so the Turkish influence was very powerful in this region as an agreement between Turkey and independent Azerbaijan considered sending military troops if one of them is in political or military trouble. Georgia as a half-colony of Germany, Turkish ally, was not counted even if its leaders supported Armenia. Whole Caucasus was controlled by Turkey.
My point is, land belongs to whoever has the power to take it
Turkey was of power to take back so-called "Western Armenia" (Eastern Anatolia) and Azerbaijan managed to defend Karabakh, Zanguezur, Eastern Gojcze, Szarur and Nachczyvan. So what's your problem?
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Here is the link to the Gyumri (Alexandropol) Treaty http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/ef/04.fr.htm

And this is the link to Kars Treaty, signed in 1921. http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/ef/08.fr.htm

Both texts are from the Turkish Foreign Ministry's webpages (homepage: www.mfa.gov.tr ), and available only in Turkish and French (the links are to the French versions). Probably you can retrieve Russian versions from Russian Foreign Ministry webpages.

In both of the Treaties, there are signatures of Armenian representatives. Whether these Armenians were Russia's puppets / traitors, is an issue which should be solved between Russia and Armenia.

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Like I said, land belongs to whoever takes it. And, that's exactly what our Artsakh fellow Armenians did. And, you'll see that in a near future, a peace treaty will be forced upon Azerbaidjan so return this land to its legitimate owner: Armenia.

Don't make us laugh, that will never going to happen! :lol:

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Kakomeister the last Treaty between independent Armenia and Turkey after Sevr is JUST the point of mein, which you came to spontaniously, saying

Because of all this, I don't understand why you keep asking me about any treaty between Armenia and Turkey. If anything exists, it would be after 1991, when Armenia gained its independence. If you are curious about treaties between Turkey and Russia, I am sure you guys can do a better job since I don't speak Armenian, neither Russian.

This is the biggest problem, that most of turks and armenians аren't imagining. For instanse Takvor is right, any Treaty is only a ratification of present situation about distribution of power in region. But diplomacy have nothing else for keeping the relationship between the countries except the Treaties, that must be sighned for economic, peacful negotiation with exact declartation of borders between the countries.

Due to absence of any Treaty and agreement between independent Armenia and Turkey after 1991, formaly are working the Treaties between UssR and Turkey signed last time in Kars with present borders.

But this is very dangerous situation, because UssR is not anymore exists and new countires need to have even between them a new Treaties, like you can see in case of Caspian Sea, where Iran is trying to get the borders of 1940.

Same is with Turkey who don't want to have a diplomatic relations with new independent Armenia, saying that because of conflict with Azerbaidjan, but really the diplomatic relations with Armenia will bring to necessity of signing a new Treaty with a new independent state Armenia about the borders. And because for such a questions automatically comes into game the latest Treaty signed between latest goverment of independent Armenia and Turkey it will be a Sevr, because it is the last one that signed by LEGITIM GOVERMENT of INDEPENDENT ARMENIA, all other Treaties were not in game...

Present situation is more useful for Armenia, than Turkey, because it let's free Armenia in case of opportunity of having a power to put his troops on border agreed with Turkey last time- see Treaty of Sevr.

And that game is seems coming in as the world reach to situation when the appearance of Kurdistan is quiet real, because of Iraq war and if you will look on Sevr Treaty http://www.hri.org/docs/sevres/ you can understand, why Turkey didn't allow US to use his territory and why he is so scaring of appearance of Kurdistan.

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Takvor [a] is right the Return of Arcakh to Armenia is not going to happen as of its legitimate owner were Russian Empire, crush of which kick the appearance of problem of Arcax. The main problem of Armenians in Arcakh were that they are asking to join the Armenia not even beeing accepted as an independent country.

But now they got the point and there will be a declaration of independent counrty of Arcakh, that the leader of international group of SCSE organization mentioned, that could happen in near futur and thi is depends only on Armenia, who were only real force, that not letting Arcakh to be independent and want to have it as his part. I am glad that in Armenia people now are not so wanting to have arcakh as one of their region, this could help to solve arcakh problem finally, declaring hima as a independent country internationaly accepted...

Of course it would be not best thing that azerbaidjan, georgia and mainly Russia like to have, becase of existance of national movements of minorities in their countries, that can accelerate the declaration of arcakh as independent state, but the main problem, Russia is moreless solved, they don't scare anymore about that north caucasus will want to run away from them.

Let's see what will be at the end of this year, when the all georgian, azerbaidjanian and russian elections of parlaments and presidents will done...

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And one more point. The Treaties, the text of which are on web page of foreign ministry of Turkey Kakomaister kindly put here are saying, that from armenian side there were signaturers as I said, the guys who are EXministr of finance and former prime-ministr, it is even written in text of that treaty. Mreover the turkish side are representing the generals, comanders of eastern borders of Turkey and it is fully clear, that the Treaty is signed because of guys need to save their own lifes..

Pour l'Armenie:

M.Alexandre Khatissian, ancien Ministre-Prasident depute;. (ancient means former-voter :cool: )

M.Abraham Kulhandanian, ex Ministre des Finances depute;.

Pour l'Turque (you can easily understand wihtout knowing so much French-voter :cool: )

S.E.le General Kazim Karabekir Pacha, Commandant du Front Oriental.

S.E. Hamid Bey, Gouverneur General d'Erzeroum

S.E. Seleiman Nedjati Bey, depute d'Erzeroum.

.....

I am quiet sure that the Treaty of Sevr is not placed on official web page of Foreign Ministry of Turkey ;) , but it not mean, that the Treaty signed and agreed with United State and border ploted by President Wilson US will not want to take into account... :cool:

So I became even more sure that Sevr is the latest Treaty, that could be in game, when would be necessary to have the negotiation between Turkey and Armenia.

By the way, Turkey have lost his chance to put hardly the present borders asa bordwers between independent Armenia and Turkey, during previous Presidency in Armenia, when People were ready to do everything to have the peacful negotiations with Turkey. But now I could say only by words of armenian hero Vazgen Sargsyan "If turks will know, what they will have in future, they will agree what we suggest for them now"....

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Yes, true, Karabakh used to be in the Russian empire, but it never were even a part of so-called "Armjanskaja oblast" - a special administrative district created by Russians on the territory of former Nachczyvan and Erivan khanates that contained all the Armenian-populated lands. Nevertheless, Armenians supported Russia in Caucasus' colonisation just because the creating of such a district was promised. But there was not any talks about Karabakh as a part of it ever.

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Takvor,

By the time the Sevres treaty signed in 1920, the Ottoman Empire was under British/ French occupation, and Sultan Vahdettin was a puppet of these occupying forces. The Ottoman signatories of the Sevres treaty, by the same token, were also puppets of British/French. These Ottoman Turks were forced to sign the treaty even though it was contrary to Ottoman interests. For you, this treaty is legitimate.

By the time the Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty was signed in 1921, Armenia was occupied by Russians, and the Armenian S.S.R was a puppet of the Soviet Russia. The Armenian signatories of the Alexandropol/Gyumri Treaty, by the same token, were puppets of the Soviet Russia. These Armenians were forced to sign the treaty, even though it was contrary to Armenian interests. For you, this treaty is NOT legitimate.

The word 'Consistency' is surely not part of your vocabulary.

But if you still want to 'enforce' the Sevres, you are welcome to gather your people and try to enforce it. After all, an honorable enemy is worthier than an honorless friend.

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[a] you are mixing everything, just read the history of crush of undercaucasian federation, that had all former russian regions called gubernia as a one country but have been crushed by Imperialistic Antanta the and Turkey had played not a small role in it...

But at least nice that you agree that question about Arcax being the Russian region is out of discussion...

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[a] you are mixing everything, just read the history of crush of undercaucasian federation, that had all former russian regions called gubernia as a one country but have been crushed by Imperialistic Antanta the and Turkey had played not a small role in it...

But at least nice that you agree that question about Arcax being the Russian region is out of discussion...

I wasn't saying anything about Turkey. The point is that either in 1828, or later in 1871 (both in Elisabethpolis province of Russia - changing administative structure), or in 1920 (recognision of Azerbaijani Democratic Republic), or 1923 (Azerbaijani SSR - formation of MKAD - "NKAO"), or in 1994 (independent Azerbaijani Republic - after-war period) Karabakh was officialy recognised as an Azerbaijani region. Though it was considered to be Russian province, it was always a part of so-called "tatar" regions of Russia. Always.

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Kakomaster if count the goverment of turkey at 1920 not as a legitimate from point of view of Turks, then say me the latest legitim goverment of Turkey. But as I know the agreement of same goverment with UssR accepted as a legitimate and there were no any other Treaties after.

We count sevr acceptable for us, because it was signed by ligit elected goverment of armenia.

Sure everybody like to count the one which is not agains is interests, so I am asking once more which goverment at which time you can count as legitim in Turkey? From my point of view till the latest election when you choose Erdogan there were no legitim goverment in Turkey and all previous ones were puppets of Israel and US, starting the Ataturk (jewish turks born in Greece) till his follower Edjevet, who only put the Turkey more and more under the control of Israel and US filling it by debts from outside and now you are in very hard situation being biggest debtor of world financial institutions even bigger than Argentina. What happen in Argentina some time ago when they declary their country as a bankcrupt, we all now...

If your point is that the latest legitim govermet Turkey have had at time of after Sultan were trowen away up to 1917, when Armenia wasn't even existing as an independent country, then it more stressing my point about ABSENCE of ANY AGREEMENT between Armenia and Turkey, which makes the BORDER LINE known.

This mean Armenia and Turkey need to came to an agreement about their borders and after recognistion of each other as an independent states.

This was my point WHAT WILL BE after Turkey will accept genicide.

Sure armenians will do everything to put into game the Sevr Treaty, because it is of interest of Armenia and if Turkey will have really a goverment taking into account the interests of Turkey and not an interests of US and Israel, then Sevr Treat is WHAT MUST BE and it must be pushed by Turkey to give Kurds and Armenians territories, that in any case are out of use in Turkey, because then Turkey will easily get a 2 countries, which will have most closest relations with him and the road to Middle Asia and Russia will be fully open, these are the only markets where the Turkish good are possible to sell and where a lot of turkic spoken nationalities are living.

Country is so strog how much colaborators he has and not how much army he has. Having the Kurds and Armenians as a collaborators and be sure they will be the one like Poland became the most closest one when UssR gave him a teritories previously accupied by Germany, for what Poland even egreed to give a eastern part of his to UssR.

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