The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree

[voter]

[a] you are off topic, here we are trying to clarify a question about Armenia and Turkey and you are again and again are hoping to solve your problems by helo of trouples between Turkey and Armenia.

Want to have a discussion about internal problem of azerbaijan open another topic, I will say again, look on maps and history of russian empire and how it crushed at least all your lie is useless look at map of

russian caucasus at 1882 and you will see that Arcax was never a part of Baku region and will not till 1923 when it was declared by UssR goverment as a part of azerbaidjan SSR http://feefhs.org/maps/ruse/re-cac.html. But Azerbaijan Republic, didn't recognize himself as a follower of Azerbaidjan SSR and so on and so fort....

DON'T MIX the INTERNAL PROBLEM OF AZERBAIDJAN with problems of TURKEY and ARMENIA.

[takvor]

Kak master,Nazi Germany was under foreign occupation too, when it signed its capitulation in 1944. That doesn't make it less valid in the eyes of the international community. So please, don't insult our intelligence by giving us that crap.And, don't worry, it doesn't matter how many generations it takes, we'll get our land back. Deep inside, you already know it anyway.

[[a]]

voterBaku was not the only "tatar" region in the russian Empire. Or you want to say that Elisabethpolis was Armenian province of Russia as well? Yes, Azerbaijani SSR was not the follower of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic 1918-20, that is why its borders were changed by the Russian government, so Zanguezur and Eastern Gojcze were given to Armenia - the lands never belonged to it. But Karabakh was still kept by Azerbaijan. And the autonomy was given later in 1923 after a big scandal when Armenians wanted to be sure that Zanguezur and Eastern Gojcze are no longer Azerbaijani regions and made the new Soviet government to form this district as a way of communication with them.

[Kakomeister]

Voter, read what I wrote carefully. I did not comment that Sevres Treaty was valid or invalid. I only said that IF Sevres Treaty can be considered illegitimate, THEN Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty can also be considered illegitimate. (given the same circumstances, occupation by foreign forces etc...). Or, IF the Sevres Treaty is valid, THEN Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty is ALSO valid. After all, Sevres Treaty was signed by Ottomans ( if we don't give a damn if they were forced to sign it or not), and Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty was signed by Armenian S.S.R (if we don't give a damn about if they were forced to sign it or not). So if you insist that much that the Sevres Treaty (1920) is legitimate, then is also Aleksandropol Treaty (1921), which overrules & superseded the provisions of the Sevres treaty. I only wanted to point, and I repeat, that it is bullshit to claim that Sevres Treaty is valid, and the Aleksandropol Treaty is not. I have respect if you say that both of them are crab, or both of them are ok, simply because both of them are so similar in their circumstances. I respect your intelligence and don't take you for a fool, so please don't try to take me for a fool either. About the discussion regarding Turkish governments, including that of Tayyip Erdogan, I agree with you in some points, but this is also off topic. If you want, we can discuss it in a seperate topic.I hope we understand eachother, even if we don't agree with eachother

[voter]

Kakomaister I am pointing out the internationally known rules. Like: a treaty must be signed by legitim goverment of country. Serv were signed by legitime goverment of Armenian Republic and possibly NONlegitime goverment of Turkey, but you need to give me a facts of NONLEGITIMITY OF THE PERSONS WHO SIGN THE TREATY FROM TURKISH SIDE.The bull shit is, to say that Alexandropol treaty were signed by ArmenianSSR, when the guys who put the signature under the paper, were memebers of Dashnak party, that were called illegal in USSR.But there is more important question, Alexandropol Treaty were signed by NONlegitim FORMER, EX-goverment from Armenia, read the name of persons from Armenian side once more "EXministr" "FORMERministr" it is in text from foreign ministry of Turkey.As well I am not really sure that a Generals, the commander of eastern front of Turkey, whoes signature is under Alexandropol Treaty from Turkey side, were legitim to sign any Treaties conserning the borders, it was only a treaty of secondtime capitulation of already capitulated goverment.

So the question about borders between Armenian Independent Republic and Turkey Independent Republic, with signatures of legitime presidents or deputy minstrs or whoever is guilty for signing the treaties about border IS NOT EXISTING and WAS NOT EXISTING.

This is the point and this is the fact I stress and this must be clearified when Turkey and Armenia want to have peacful negotiations. There is no way in the world to have peacful negotiation without clarifing the borders.

For now no one of Treaties signed before could be fully accepted by both sided

Theis is the point and that why the fact of genocid will be in game, when armenia and turkey will start the discussions of starting diplomatic relations and signing treaties between them for peacful negotiations. And not only that, but mainly thatwhy Turkey is not willing to accept the fact of genocide, because it will make WEAK his positions, when there will be diplomatic discussions and one will need to come to treaties about borders, visa regims, transportations e.t.c...But you know kakomeister, to start negotiation about of treaties for visa regims, transportations, cultural touristic etc relations between Armenia and Turkey, is possible even without having a treaty of peacful negotiation with defined borders. See, like russia and japan still formally are in the war, because of borders and mainly Kuril islands and it not bothering neither russian not japan people to visit each other and make a business with each other, because diplomatic relations between them are existing, but the border problem still in air...Armenian goverment have no problems to start a diplomatic relations and sign treaties about business, visa etc relations.But till in Turkey the goverment of Turkey is puppets of US and Israel, more caring about their own pokets and not people in Turkey, they will not want to start really useful treaties, because US and Israel don't need strong turkey with developed economics oriented on east (middle asia, russia). That why they were keeping all last 80 years a corrupted goverment in Turkey, who keep people of Turkey weak and poor, runign and filling europe by illegal immigrants. Because this makes troubles to european countries, who starting to spend the money and give Turkey debts as a poor country to develop peoples life.But Atraturk and his followers like Ejevet puting in their own pockets that money and people in Turkey stay poor and still looking for job in european countries. So jews and US are killing 2 rabbits at once, pushing the europ to spend money in turkey and not leting the turky to became a strong country of middle east. The mechanism is easy, knowing that turks will not love any armenian and armenians will not love turks, thy keep the HATE between them hot, playing with "accepting not accepting genocide" and during that time the guys like Ejevet and previous your women primeministr, I don't remember her name, filling their bank accounts in suiss by dollars of debts given for making the poor turks rich. And people of turkey will be in bul shit till they are going to belive a bull shit, that comes from official USJewish-Turkish propaganda...Feel good and read once more my posting in Kurdistan where I was exlaining you about that even your arabic brothers don't like you, they are loughing on you saying "Turks are Jewish bitch"....But I have a little hope, the rejection of US troops to come and do the job for Israel via Turkey is really a sign, that you got in Turkey a goverment, that at least want to think about people of Turkey and not only filling their pockets by jewish dollars and just supporting jews in everything...

[Kakomeister]

Voter, the Sevres Treaty was signed in 1920 ( I think it was August 1920) by the Sultan, and the Ankara Treaty was signed between Ataturk's government and France in March 1921. This means, according to the international law, that Ottoman empire was legitimate in 1920, but obviously not in 1921 - otherwise the French would sign the Treaty with the Sultan. So probably, during the 6-7 months between August 1920 and March 1921, nobody really knew who the legitimate government of Turkey was.

Anyways, I will soon try to find and put here links about the Treaty of Ankara (signed between Ataturk's interim government and France in 1921), and the Treaty of Lausanne (signed between the independent Turkish republic and Greece, France, Britain, Italy and other Allied powers in 1923). Both of them specifically mention the Treaty of Sevres, and declare it null and void. It is obviously not Turkey's fault, that in 1920 Armenia's independence was violated by Soviet Russia and Armenia was not given the chance to accept or refuse the Treaty of Lausanne. ( On the other hand, I totally agree with you that if I were a patriotic Armenian, I would never sign the Treaty of Lausanne, and give up the Treaty of Sevres)

The same is true for Aleksandropol / Gyumri Treaty (1921), which replaces and supersedes the Sevres Treaty ( but you don't accept that). However, your argument about the Treaty of Aleksandropol / Gyumri does not make a sense from a logical point of view. You say that the Dashnak party was declared illegitimate by the Soviet Russia. Does it seem reasonable to you, that the Soviet Russia, with all her power to conquer entire Caucasus, and run a country from Ural Mountains to Pacific Ocean, will let an 'illegal' Armenian party to sign a treaty in the name of all Armenia, especially when several divisions of the Red Army was occupying Yeravan and other cities?

Even if we assume for one moment that Dashnak party managed to sign the treaty secretly with Turkey, would the Soviet Union not cancel it the moment they find out about it? If such a thing had happened, Soviets would do reverse this treaty (also don't forget that Russia was always militarily more powerful than Turkey since 1700s), and make sure that 'legitimate' parties of the Armenian S.S.R sign a new treaty with Turkey.

I am not an expert of international law, but I studied enough of it to obtain my undergraduate degree in international relations. According to the international law, all international treaties are valid even if new countries emerge out of the two contracting countries. For example, When Yugoslavia was seperated, Serbia did not challenge its border with Hungary, and Macedonia did not challenge its borders with Albania. This is BECAUSE their independece did not mean that the treaties signed by their previous rulers would be invalid. And I repeat, it is not Turkey's fault if Russians, or treachourous Armenians signed a Treaty with Turkey which did not represent Armenia's best interests.

I never denied that part of Armenia's suffering is because of the actions of Ottoman Empire, but you seem to forget that part of the blame is with occupying Soviet Russia and treacherous Armenians who sold out their country. Our last Sultan, Vahdettin, who also sold out our country and signed the Treaty of Sevres. When Turkey gained its independence, he was eventually exiled and did like an honourless dog in Malta. And Ataturk (I don't care whether he was originally Jewish, German, Armenian or Ethiopian) made sure that nobody could enforce Sultan's treachery on the Turkish nation.

(About Jewish influence in Turkey and Turkish governments, I repeat my suggestion to discuss it in a seperate topic). Take care.

[voter]

Kakomeister I am glad that we came to the same point and speaking aproximately about same thing, that the treaties before this day and this time on May 5 2003 that have anything about borders territories and relations between the Turkey and Armenia are not signed within bilateral interests of both countries, some of them are of interests of Turkey some of interests of Armenia.

Of course "According to the international law, all international treaties are valid even if new countries emerge out of the two contracting countries." And that why till now no Turkey and no Armenia didn't start any military actions agains each others.

But both international laws and experience of histroy shows, that without treaty of peace between a counties the possibility of war between them are biger, than when the treaty about borders and territories are signed and mainly agreed.

So the step after establishing the diplomatic negotiations between Turkey and Armenia will be to sit and start to discuss at which conditions they will agree to live in peace.

For this both countries must be enough strong to be able to concede some interests for getting others. I am glad that your last goverment is understanding it and mention "if economical interests of Turkey will need the border with armenia will be opened independently on claims of third countries"...

The message, that armenians of the world want to bring to Turks by pushing the condemnation of genocide of armenians happend in Osman Turkey is about to show, that they want to have guarantees of the lives of the generations of armenians in future from turkish goverment.

But when the turkey will accept the fact of genocide they will for sure use it to claims about territories at least to have a guarantees of a free acces to some of territories strategic interests of present republic of armenia.

I think the acceptance of genocide of armenians Turkey is keeping for the time, when they will want to beacme free from being depends on jewish debts, because acceptance of genocide means opportunity to people kicked of from Turkey to have any time living permit in Turkey, like any jew is allowed to have living permit in Germany as well compensation of robed personal property. Turkey with his economic situarion is far from Germany and easily will declare, that he is buncrupt country as of necessity to make so much expenses due to acceptance of genocide.

This will only the way, that world financial organisations give a new debts to Turkey and cover the economical needs of Turkey even when it is not returned a billions of previous debts.

The political dividents for Turkey from that step I can say a lot. One of which is establishment of peacful negotiation with armenia and open way to middle asia, russia main regions where people are buying the turkish products.

And the point is that all this will be for sure a game with diplomatic smiles and not a real LOVE. But at leat the situation like Japan and Russia have between them, when noone of japanees like russians, but they keep the relations and trying to keep them in peacful level...

[voter]

About suggestion of Kakomaister for to discuss it in a seperate topic Jewish influence in Turkey and Turkish governments it is really not a separat question but of course could be a big theme for discussions.

And the jewish factor conserning the question of topic "what if genocide accepted by turkey" is playing as big role as the existance of Israel himself as a country.

Because, I can repeat in other words the acceptance of genocide of armenians makes free the Turkey form dependency to US and then for sure Israel. Israel becaming a only country, that fully supports US in middle asia and either will need to change his orientation becaming also independent country with his own interest or continuing to be a enemy of all middle east including Turkey after acceptance genocide of armenia.

For escaping this lonliness of Isael and loose of Turkey as a supporter in middle east for israel agains arab world american jews are ready to do everything.

I don't really understand are the people in Turkey so sorrupted, that ready to keep all their nation in poverty and miserable for the sake of money from US jews?

Even a stupid declaration of necessity to became a european member country is bull shit coming from us-jew propaganda, becade they now, that nobody is waiting for chip turkish products in europe, the europe itself don't know how to sell all the goods he is producing.

The huge amount of turkish good are going into exSoviet countries and because of troubles of borders and transportation it is quite hard to bring big amount of turkish products into that regions, which will push the economics of Eastern Turkey if not 100 but at least 20-30% grow.

And happen all this, that the peacful negotitation between turkey and armenia established, borders opened and goods from turkey went to east-russia, US will loose Turkey as it has nothing except military bases in Turkey and a huge part of turkish economy will be oriented and depend on market of russia, whishc will be an enormous factor that could play in politic of turkey a big role as of necesity for making a relations of Turkey more closer to russia and russia is more arabic oriented.

Then Israel will be completly isolated in middle east as of his orientation to US.

For now the Europ is already not US oriented and Israel have no any support in the world except US and Turkey.

I hope turks will be able to keep their present goverment against the jewish-turkish provocations, that they will make a lot, starting with ask to cut off the relations with Syria as and ending a plays with factor of Kurds.

But I am not so much optimistic, as of existance of military factor in Turkey, a army of turkey by constitution is declared as a "keeper of turkish republics inteests" and the generals could be easily involved in game and make realise a provocation by US and israel, declare that "accepting genocide of armenians" is out of interests of Turkey and turks lose any goverment, that will at least be brave to say a word agains US ambitions.

[Kakomeister]

Voter, I am not very optimistic either, but I share your hope that someday, somewhere, some compromise will be found between Turkey and Armenia. For some time, probably the relations will be just business based, and maybe later people come closer also in their hearts.

About Jewish - Turkish - Armenian issues, I read something which literally shocked me. The article, (it must be in NY times, Washington Post, IHT, it doesn't matter, they are all owned by the same Anglo - Jewish cartel), it wrote about Turkish diplomats assasinated by ASALA militants between 1970s and 1980s. Its translation also appeared in several Turkish newspapers, also in some Turkish internet forums.

The article said that all 16 diplomats killed by ASALA were all Jewish by origin. And several ASALA killers which were caught and prisoned (including Yanikian who killed the Turkish consul in Los Angeles), agreed with this theory. Supposedly, Yanikian said something like "I would never risk killing Turks, who might be Armenian friendly, or even Armenian in origin. I killed because I knew this diplomat was Jewish, and we knew he was the enemy of the Armenians".

I don't know how much of this is true, but it is an interesting theory. Of course, no excuse justifies the killing of our diplomats, but because nothing can bring them back now, their deaths may open new truths which nobody knows.

[voter]

That's quiet hard question to understand why the guys from ASALA were looking for jewish original diplomats. Could be it is just accidentially they were all jews, because there are a lot of jews in Turkish govermental structurs, who are the main diplomatic power of Turkey and this could be because jews are usually good diplomats and could easily get such job.Could be that the diplomats were the most active ones in posing the anti armenian position of Turkey, because of their jewish origin they were need to be enough active, knowing that they will more possible loose their job than any non-jews original diplomat from Turkey.And what said a one soldier of ASALA is not a official position of that organization, which declared his abandment at late 80ies and not more existat. But what is clear, they guys know, that if you dig in turk, you will possible find another nationality than real Turk came from Altay and China at 14 century to minor asia. And most possible you can find an armenian, who hided his real nationality to be able became a member of goverment of Turkey. As I know, to be a Historians in Turkey one need to declare himself as Turk and no any other nationality. Exceptions, again are Jews.But this all don't mean, that Jews have something specially agains armenians, they do their interests and for now their interests are in contradiction with interests of Armenians, Arabs, Persians, Russians, so they need to keep Turkey agains all of above mentioned to have Turkey as a collaborator for Israel.I were shocked to know about religion of Turks, who were the leaders of Joung-Turks party and were the organisers of genocide of armenians in 1915, Enver, Jemal, Taaliat were jewish and this is a infromation form jewish-russian web site and not an armeninan source...However, knowing all this I still optimistic, that situation will going to be better as of Israel is more and more becaming russia oriented, because people there are understanding, that US-jews are not interested on peace for Israel, otherwise the peace will be there already during last 60 years of existance of Israel.I count the present situation more a war between US and russian jews, that is going on since the start of movement of sionism 1897...The closer economic relations with russia for Turkey is on air and as I mentioned before establishment of that relations will mean the neccessity of Israel to became more russia oriented, too.

[voter]

Kakomaister, try to find a book from the Politolog, Dozent and Leader of the "Free Universy" Fikret Baskaya "Paradigmanin Iflasi" (The brake of Paradigms). The guy were arrested after 2 weeks, when he have published his book in April 1991. Possible, you will need to look undergroundly...It is a book from seldom point of view from Politologs, who have tried to find out who really were the Mustafa Kemal - "Atatruk" and how he became a leader of Turkey...

[Kakomeister]

Voter, I have looked around and you seem to be right. People know about

'Paradigmanin iflasi' but they don't have it. But the good news is that he is released from the prison in mid 2002 following the 6th democratization package of the Turkish parliament.

It is also interesting to note that none of Turkish prominent pro-Kurdish journalists, including Fikret Baskaya, Zulfu Livaneli, Taner Akcam, and Yasar Kemal are not of Kurdish origin. (Only Yasar Kemal recently claimed that his grandmother was probably Kurdish). Most Kurdish intellectuals, on the other hand, are bought off by Turkey's elites, and do not stand up for the rights of their people. This makes me only proud because it demonstrates the upheaval of peace and democracy in Turkey.

To the disappointment of many Armenians, (I don't know if you are included), Turkey is making good progress toward democratization, and it is even mentioned in Human Rights Watch and other int'l organizations as the most progressive country in democratization. I take their word because only few years ago H.R Watch and Amnesty had the most negative and critical comments about Turkey, so they were never ever pro-Turkish in their attitude.

Obviously, and unfortunately, Turkey is still behind EU and North America in terms of democratic and civil rights. But the Turkish progress, especially after the capture of the PKK leader Ocalan is admirable. Even the Greek Presidency of the European Union publicly praised Turkey for such a rapid improvement.

About Ataturk, the majority of Turks and myself owe him gratitude and allegiance. He certainly had his mistakes, especially from a 2003 perspective looking back to 1920s -1930s. Our task is now to correct his mistakes without abandoning his principals. Without the westernization & modernization he realized, Turkey would probably still be executing journalists and dissidents like in Iran & Saudi Arabia.

[voter]

Kakomaister I am glad and not disappointed that in turkey the process of democratisation is going on. I felt it by speaking with other people from Turkey, they really whant to do something new, build their country nice and good and as well know about the truth of their History, which is not so much important for time, when one have nothing to eat, but beacames interesting and bothers when one is sat and like to have something also for soul.

I like to hear from turks from turkey that they are not just trusting to some guys calling them LEADERS like it is in azerbaijan, but prooving what they are hearing and reading, rechecking it by logical thinkings of themselfs and by others. This is the democracy, a freedom to think and check, because it bring to necessity to really have an access to all documents and facts and what is writen and said by everyone and not just couple of guys.

I guess, the most of armenians will not be disappointed to see the developed democracy in turkey, except most stupid ones with useless hate, which if even have a reason, couldn't be a basis for building the relations with neibors. No turks and no armenians will disappear from a world and the relations must be established, like the scotlanders have established their relations with englanders after hundreds of years of wars...

One thing that one need to expect from each other is security and this could be established by finding out at which conditions one can have that relations... For instance, we feel secure and keep our "relations" via net and this works even, when some of us start to blame a bad words...

I hope that the democratisation will go on more in Turkey and jewish-us interests will not stop that economical grow of the country called Turkey, which coming out.

Economical grow and democratisation will bring to necessity to hear of vois of own people and start establishing the conditions in their own countries for qualified and clever citizens, that they not look for luck in europs and US. Armenians and greeks are feel hurt on turks, because of trowing them away from Turkey, which is so much their homeland as for turks, if not say more. It is the reason to hate the Turkey, who at start of 20th century just deside to rob at least the citizenship of that people, if we even not consider the question of genocide the other big staff remains - the respest to human in Turkey, who do his best to develop that country.

I wasn't understanding long time, why Turkey start to masacre and trow away the big part of elite of his country, but it came clear for me after lookig the situation after 1st world war in Turkey. Everything were in deep down for a decades. There were no more real development.

This is very similar to Russia, when the bolsheviks kick out the big amount of intelligency as non "proletarian elements" mainly aristocracy and intelligency, kill the other part including the generals and strategists of army. Result. Easy travel of German army till moscow during a 4 moths only at 1941.

I say it because to let you think about question are the turks today really ready to recover armenians in Turkey as a citizens. For saying yes one need to be enough cleverminded to understand, that only getting the debts from jewish financial world you will not be able to build turkey as a country where the germans will ask for work permit and not opposite. There will be necessary to develop the eceonimics, involving the workful people. And it is proofed, that armenians could easily fulfill such a level of intelligency and businessmen, as it is in russia, us, france, argenita, brasil etc whenever they are... Will the Turks like it? Once they show how they like it when Young turks say KILL THEM and this was fully like a bolshevic revolution, when people were killing everybody who is richer than they or clever than they.

Why I am sue that there will be more armenians in your country if there will have guarantees of security for their lifs, becase there were armenians before 1st wordl war and it is even not denying the official turkish goverment when speaking about that time. They deny the reason, why these citizens of ottoman Turkey were kicked out from their homeland, which many people call genocide and turkish point of view is something like a resettlement or whatever. But the fact remains, that there were people, they had rights to be a citizens of country where there lived and have rights to live there have their business and properties, which were taken from them BECAUSE OF BEING ARMENINS and no any other reasons. If that people or their succesors will have rights to get their citizenship and rights back and letted to live in Turkey and get the opportunity make a careers in politic and economic life of that country, they will not so easily use that opportunity, becase once it was happen in their life and they were robed....

But if due to democratisation of Turkey - recovering the rights of previous citizens will be possible, it could give some of them a hope to start their life again trying to buid the country called Turkey. But this must be quiet secure and guaranteed country, where people ready to let armenians live there freely.

Try to look around and ask simple question to your friends, in which conditions they will let armenians live with them at same county and you will see how much democracy you have in your country.

[voter]

For Ataturk and pro-eurpean orientation of Turkey I can say based on history of armenians who have lived mainly in the eastern parts of present Turkey, there were always problems, that ordinary armenians were more eastern oriented as they have their all contacts and trade relations with persians, arabs, babylonians, indians, china. But governors-kings were western oriented, they study in Rome and Konstantinopol and became more west oriented. Sowhy the ordinary people were always like their kingd and governors, but not so much ready to just die for them, because it was something nice and beutiful and advertised, but it is not their lifestyle, for which they will be ready to die....

Only thing that keep the armenians from completely becaming persian, babylonian like country were western type religion-christianity.

And present ordinary people in Turkey not even having a western oriented religion. And I am pretty sure, that nobody were really ready to die for Ataturk and will be ready to die for new ataturk who will try to fight for having a western type of life... This is I thing the most biggest nonsens that I see hearing from any Turk, that Ataturk made a big deal for turkey. What is that deal? To cut out Turkey from his real lovely eastern type of life, that people in any case like to have and have even living in Berlin or PAris? Was it really NICE to cut the connection of Turks from eastern ethnoses like persians, indians koreans and china to build a new connection with german-roman ethic groups, who have nothing common with them and since 500 years didn't like to have anything from turks, except carpets?

Ataturk put Turkey in most bigist jewish shit, that ever any country have had. Turkey were all is existance after 1923 were in bad relations with his all nighbours and allways trying to do what others what, like first english want and ataturk do it then germans want, then he do it then again english want and they do and then US want and they do....

Have eve the situation in governing time of Ataturk let the turks to be the owners of their country, doing what they want bythemselfs....

I think if Ataturk didn't make think worst he for dure didn'T made for Turks any GOOD staff, it stay as it is since 1923....

But I am open to hear the BIG VICTORIES of turkish nation under the ataturk.

"Nothing is as it seems for first glanc"

[voter]

As I said, the things are starting to go on.

Good Luck in keeping your Erdogan goverment in Turkey guys. It will be really big trouble now, when Turkey tries to be independent from US-Jewish money...

TURKISH PRESS EVIDENCES OBVIOUS AGGRAVATION OF ISRAELI-TURKISH RELATIONS

22.05.2003

According to publications in the Turkish press, the Israeli-Turkish relations are obviously aggravating recently. Specifically, as noted in an analytical article by "Zaman" Islamist newspaper, one of US influential Jewish organizations – Jewish National Security Institute – has condemned Ankara stand towards the US displayed both in the course of the anti-Iraqi military campaign and the subsequent period. The statement released by the organization emphasized in previous years Jewish organizations had assisted Turks many times, including in lobbying to prevent US recognition of the Armenian genocide. "Until now we did not wish to publicly blame Turkey. We supposed Ankara to settle relations with the US after the war. However, we were wrong in the issue," – the US Jewish community representatives stated.

The present position of Turkey is analogous with that of First World War. The former Prime Minister of the country Bulent Ecevit expressed such an opinion. In his words, as reported by Turkish sources, Turkey is enduring a very important historical period. "The US and Britain raffle off "the Kurd card", I suppose the "Armenian factor" will be used as well," – he said. Due to Ecevit, Iraq's territory is occupied just like during the First World War period, thus being in his opinion not the end but the beginning of hardship.

The Judiciary Committee of the US House of Representatives has approved H. Res. 193 on mass crimes against humanity, which specifically recognizes the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Turkey in 1915. The document specifically calls on the US to learn lessons from past mass crimes to prevent them in the future. As reported by the Armenian National Committee of America, after the Judiciary Committee passing the resolution the House leadership may submit it for discussion by US Congress. One of co-sponsors of the document, member of the House of Representatives Adam Schiff noted thereupon US Congress "can finally take the path of recognition of the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians." It should be noted that resolution 193 gained support of over 100 members of the US Congress lower chamber.

I guess it is time to be free accepting the goncide in Turkey before the other world will do that. Turks were always good diplomats and I guess they will catch also this time the moment, when one need to run out from problems...

[Rev. Justice]

To Kakomeister:I am Armenian and I am a decendant of the victims of the genocide. I have read your question about recognition/reparation/restoration and here is what I think on it. I`ll broaden the question a bit and will say what is required for the Turks and Armenians to get along well togather.Turkish and Armenian governments have to do the following:Turkey:1. Officially give apologies for the genocide to the decendants of it`s victims.2. Establish a special status for Armenians - decendants of the genocide victims - to freely settle in Turkey regardless to what their current citizenship is; let them instantly, if desired, become Turkish citizens, if they do - they should pay no taxes in Turkey during the first 5 years3. Establish one sided visa-waiving regime with the Republic of Armenia: Turkish citizens must be required to obtain a visa for visiting Armenia for a small amount of money (say £10), while Armenian citizens would not require a visa for visiting Turkey for up to 90 days. Also any Armenian vehicles or goods must be free from any taxes when crossing Turkey`s border, the Turks, though, must pay fully according to the laws of the Republic of Armenia.4. All Armenian christian sights in Turkey must be returned to the posession of their legitimate owners - Armenian Apostolic, Evangelical and the Catholic churches.5. The Turkish governmet must bring changes in Turkish school system to ensure that the truth about WWI and the Ottoman History is not being falsificised.6. Turkish government must pay it`s debts to those Armenians holding Ottoman vouchers, shares in any companies, proof of bank acconts and other valuables, as well as to those, who can proove any holdings in Ottoman Turkey. The interest rate must be charged. No other reparations should be paid to the decendants of the genocide victims. No reparations should be made to the Republic of Armenia.7. Territorial changes: Turkey must transfer the Ararat mountain region (Surmalu) and Ani region (just a small bit) to the Republic of Armenia administration. Also, Turkey must provide Armenia with a small bit of land in the Mediterrainian shore of Cilicia (Kilikya) for establishing Armenian shipping port and docks.8. Turkey should not intervene in Armenian-Azeri affairs in Karabagh and Naxijevan issues.Armenia:1. Dismiss any other territorial claims to Turkey then those, mentioned above.2. Dismiss any other financial claims to Turkey, other then those, mentioned above.3. Establish good cooperation with Turkish government against Islamic fundamentalism and international terrorism.4. Stop all hostilities towards Turkey and the Turks. Get all the anty-Turkish agenda out of policy.5. Establish favourable trading regime with Turkey.6. Offer mediation help in Turkey-Cyprus conflict.7. Establish Turkic studies course and make the full coverage on Turkey and it`s multiethnic culture availible to Armenians in schools and universities.I believe this is what must be done in order to make the relations between the two peoples and countries better.

[Rev. Justice]

Jedem das seine.

Where did you get this frase from, you bloodthirsty man? Perhaps, Buchenwald! Right on the gate - ja, jedem das sein! Your nature talks for your mind, so let us be not deceived; ......nair nran, yerek guynov nuvirakan mer nshan, togh poghpoghi tshnamu dem, togh misht bandza Hayastan...

[voter]

Definition of Genocide

Major cases the fit or come close, with murdered in parenthesis) are the 1909-23

mass murder of Armenians, Greeks, and other Christians by the Turkish regimes (about 2.1 million Armenians

and 347 thousand Greeks), Cambodian Khmer Rouge 1975-79 murder of Buddhist monks, Cambodian-Vietnamese, Muslims, and other minorities (541,000); 1904-07 German murder of Hereros, Hottentots, and Berg-Damaras of Namibia (72,000), 1967-87 Burundi murder of Hutus (150,000), World War II Croatia's murder of Serbs and Jews (655,000), Iraq's 1966-88 murder of Kurds and southern Shiites (over 100,000).

Definition of Genocide*, R.J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Hawaii. Full text is here

[Celtic]

))

мой первый постинг на форуме, между прочим

[tenente]

I suppose we will never recognize this lie but even if we did for political motives, you would be able to get no territory, no money, nothing. As for the diplomatic relationships, Turkey has no reason to lift the blockage, it will do our economy no good and excuse us if we don't give a damn about your economy. In fact, you would be surprised to see, nobody here gives a damn about anything in Armenia except for the genocide which I think is the last desperate efforts of a worthless (no offense...) country. There was no genocide all right and 1915 was a period I would want to forget if I was an armenian, my nation treachearously backstabbing my host country's army in wartime, burning helpless Turkish villages, murdering unarmed civilians including infants, and getting themselves deported to somewhere in the process,etc... Also, it doesn't really help you invading Azeri land, as if your land was not enough for your tiny population. Damn, we have 15 million people stiffed up in Istanbul and Azeri's being our nephews I don't see any reconciliation in near future unless some Armenians realize they're brainwashed or no genocide happened at all... Besides being inaccurate and henious, the lie of genocide is also pathetic and you'd better invent something new.

[Artsrun]

"turks are afraid of themselves - they are afraid of the terrible truth which is hidden in them" © voter

I make myself no illusions, about the fully realizing of this sentence by yours, but couldn't you at least try that?

[Fidelio"K"]

I suppose we will never recognize this lie but even if we did for political motives, you would be able to get no territory, no money, nothing. As for the diplomatic relationships, Turkey has no reason to lift the blockage, it will do our economy no good and excuse us if we don't give a damn about your economy. In fact, you would be surprised to see, nobody here gives a damn about anything in Armenia except for the genocide which I think is the last desperate efforts of a worthless (no offense...) country. There was no genocide all right and 1915 was a period I would want to forget if I was an armenian, my nation treachearously backstabbing my host country's army in wartime, burning helpless Turkish villages, murdering unarmed civilians including infants, and getting themselves deported to somewhere in the process,etc... Also, it doesn't really help you invading Azeri land, as if your land was not enough for your tiny population. Damn, we have 15 million people stiffed up in Istanbul and Azeri's being our nephews I don't see any reconciliation in near future unless some Armenians realize they're brainwashed or no genocide happened at all... Besides being inaccurate and henious, the lie of genocide is also pathetic and you'd better invent something new.

←

And now hear this asshole: whoever you are , a filthy turk or no less dirty azeri. Our "tiny" country is on its path to restore the justice, not only to our victims but to the world. It started with Karabakh and it will end with Mush Sasoun Van and Ardaghan. And soon we'll have our flags waving on the top of Ararat, and none will stop us. Now we tell you, out of our boundless mercy, get out of our way.

[voter]

I suppose we will never recognize this lie but even if we did for political motives, you would be able to get no territory, no money, nothing. As for the diplomatic relationships, Turkey has no reason to lift the blockage, it will do our economy no good and excuse us if we don't give a damn about your economy. In fact, you would be surprised to see, nobody here gives a damn about anything in Armenia except for the genocide which I think is the last desperate efforts of a worthless (no offense...) country. There was no genocide all right and 1915 was a period I would want to forget if I was an armenian, my nation treachearously backstabbing my host country's army in wartime, burning helpless Turkish villages, murdering unarmed civilians including infants, and getting themselves deported to somewhere in the process,etc... Also, it doesn't really help you invading Azeri land, as if your land was not enough for your tiny population. Damn, we have 15 million people stiffed up in Istanbul and Azeri's being our nephews I don't see any reconciliation in near future unless some Armenians realize they're brainwashed or no genocide happened at all... Besides being inaccurate and henious, the lie of genocide is also pathetic and you'd better invent something new.

←

There were, are and will be ONEPOST members in our and other forums, who like moths, flying in on light of our "hot candels", but leaving only a bed smell after they burned on.

One can quote for them only a words of Mustafa Jemal - grandson of Youngturkish leader of Nazi Turkey from 1908-1918 Jemal Pasha, he said in Salzburg after a meeting of historians about genocide - "it is ridiculous that in Turky they still

deny the genocide".

[tenente]

Hello again.

And now hear this asshole: whoever you are , a filthy turk or no less dirty azeri. Our "tiny" country is on its path to restore the justice, not only to our victims but to the world. It started with Karabakh and it will end with Mush Sasoun Van and Ardaghan. And soon we'll have our flags waving on the top of Ararat, and none will stop us.

Now, never mind the army, only the insurgent volunteers would be enough to stop you from invading Turkish soil. I am a Turk, though not filthy, and I am really curious about your flag on Mt. Ararat.

There were, are and will be ONEPOST members in our and other forumswho like moths, flying in on light of our "hot candels", but leaving only a bed smell after they burned on.

One can quote for them only a words of Mustafa Jemal - grandson of Youngturkish leader of Nazi Turkey from 1908-1918 Jemal Pasha, he said in Salzburg after a meeting of historians about genocide - "it is ridiculous that in Turky they still

deny the genocide".

Then I have just broken a record with my second post. There were no Nazi Turkeys in the history. By Mustafa Jemal, if you mean Atatürk, he was not the "grandson of Youngturkish leader of Nazi Turkey" and he, I am afraid, never said such words.

Even though I am not an asshole or moth, I should concede that my first post was a bit harsh, maybe I was in a wrong mood. It writes "hope to see Turks here." under the title of this thread and so I thought I could express my own opinions. I am both Turkish and among the elit, both of which you loathe but I have no prejudice against Armenians or your genocide. Come, let's have a reasonable discussion about the genocide with proofs and concrete arguments away from nationalism and curses, persuade me and I will defend your ideas among my community. After all, I hope you are clear about your ideas and are not afraid of defending them against a "filty Turk" like me. If you prove that the genocide really took place, I repeat, that will be how I position myself in debates here. So, anyone here care to discuss and "educate" me?

[tenente]

I am both Turkish and among the elit, both of which I know you loathe but I have no prejudice against Armenians or your genocide. I am given strong proofs here in Turkey that the genocide never happened but I would want to hear your side too. Come, let's have a reasonable discussion about the genocide with proofs and concrete arguments away from nationalism and curses, persuade me and I will defend your ideas among my community. After all, I hope you are clear about your ideas and are not afraid of defending them against a "filty Turk" like me. If you prove that the genocide really took place, I repeat, that will be how I position myself in debates here. So, anyone here care to discuss and "educate" me?