tenente

I haven't said what I had wanted to say. In fact, I have nothing particular to say; I know I am repeating myself but what I want is a discussion at whose end one of us will realize things we did not consider before. It is interesting, though, that you want me to get out, does it hurt to hear a different opinion than yours? This is the core of the democracy. You speculate about why I say there was no genocide. The genocide, 1915, seems as far to me as Roman Empire or Troy War. It is history to me. You sort of claim I am involved with my ancestors who performed a genocide at 1915. What exactly do you mean, am I getting out of my house at night and shooting Armenians in the street? Why I believe there was no genocide is that I am offered lots of powerful evidence here in Turkey but I also want to hear your arguments. What if the whole world says it is genocide? Well, then if there is really a genocide, they would be right; if there is not, they will be wrong. The whole world also said once that Earth was flat. How the world accepts Turkey will not change as how they accepted Germany did not change. I hope you are aware that no state accepts the genocide because they like you or because they are so interested in history; states cannot be friends, they can merely be partners. When a state's interests then lie with Turkey, they will start to deny the genocide. You cannot achieve anything by third party countries, they are not interested but they may take the advantage. This is a problem Armenia and Turkey should solve on their own because we cannot go on hating each other for generations. I am ready continue the historical track of the event (my previous post) if you indicate that we are thinking the same thing so far.

Hello again, I hope you are not tired of me. Now, it is easy for me to say that being an Armenian worse because you have to cry to the whole world all the time about a lie you claim genocide and dream about what will never going to happen. But I will not do it. I have just wanted to discuss scientifically about the genocide and being cursed at was the typical Armenian response I had expected. Another was somebody saying it has already been proved or there are proofs everywhere on Internet. There also proofs against the genocide on Internet if you are not aware of it. Sometimes confronting the other side is hard, especially if you are extremely sure about your position but convincing people like me, the public opinion before the official, is the only way you can have the Turkish government acknowledge the genocide which connects us to the title of this thread. In turn, you should be ready to concede yourself if you find out you are wrong. You should be thankful to me I am saving you from being a community in which everyone has the same idea and having fruitless conversations. If everyone thinks the same thing, no one is thinking enough, eh?(Oscar Wilde) Now, frankly I do not know much about Azeri issues and that is anyway not the issue I would like to discuss. You can be right about Karabakh or whatever problem you have with them, or you might be wrong, I do not know. Good. That is what is going to get us started at the main subject. Now, let's talk about 1915. To my knowledge, Russians armed the Armenian civilians, who were already causing riots in recent decades, and created an unrest in eastern provinces of Anatolia. Armenian mobs cut the supply lines of the Ottoman army who was already in a bad condition with the Russian and attacked unarmed Muslim villages(Turkish, Kurdish or etc.)burning them down and not even sparing the infants. All minorities in the Ottoman empire had certain rights. For example, they could not go into churches. The Turkish officials tried to identify the criminals and seperate them from the innocent. Was that easy at that time? No. The Armenian civilians, even if themselves did not attack Turkish, hid those who did. All churches and other supposedly sacred places were transformed into arsenals. Therefore, the Ottomans could not tell the guilty from the relatively few innocent. Now, what would the Ottomans have done if they had wanted to kill them all(genocide)? They would have spared a regiment to the Armenian areas and instantly shot down everybody. What they did was different, they deported them, spared them escorts when the army was already stretched too thin with the Russians still attacking. If the Armenians had not attacked people behind the front in wartime which was considered treachery at the time, they would not have been deported. That is how the troubles begin. Do we agree so far? If we do, I will move on. Cursing everything a nation holds sacred is easy, guys. The flag, the government, history, army, national hero, being Atatürk. Do that if you want, I will not be surprised, but what I want is somebody to convince me.

I am both Turkish and among the elit, both of which I know you loathe but I have no prejudice against Armenians or your genocide. I am given strong proofs here in Turkey that the genocide never happened but I would want to hear your side too. Come, let's have a reasonable discussion about the genocide with proofs and concrete arguments away from nationalism and curses, persuade me and I will defend your ideas among my community. After all, I hope you are clear about your ideas and are not afraid of defending them against a "filty Turk" like me. If you prove that the genocide really took place, I repeat, that will be how I position myself in debates here. So, anyone here care to discuss and "educate" me?

Hello again. Now, never mind the army, only the insurgent volunteers would be enough to stop you from invading Turkish soil. I am a Turk, though not filthy, and I am really curious about your flag on Mt. Ararat. Then I have just broken a record with my second post. There were no Nazi Turkeys in the history. By Mustafa Jemal, if you mean Atatürk, he was not the "grandson of Youngturkish leader of Nazi Turkey" and he, I am afraid, never said such words. Even though I am not an asshole or moth, I should concede that my first post was a bit harsh, maybe I was in a wrong mood. It writes "hope to see Turks here." under the title of this thread and so I thought I could express my own opinions. I am both Turkish and among the elit, both of which you loathe but I have no prejudice against Armenians or your genocide. Come, let's have a reasonable discussion about the genocide with proofs and concrete arguments away from nationalism and curses, persuade me and I will defend your ideas among my community. After all, I hope you are clear about your ideas and are not afraid of defending them against a "filty Turk" like me. If you prove that the genocide really took place, I repeat, that will be how I position myself in debates here. So, anyone here care to discuss and "educate" me?

I suppose we will never recognize this lie but even if we did for political motives, you would be able to get no territory, no money, nothing. As for the diplomatic relationships, Turkey has no reason to lift the blockage, it will do our economy no good and excuse us if we don't give a damn about your economy. In fact, you would be surprised to see, nobody here gives a damn about anything in Armenia except for the genocide which I think is the last desperate efforts of a worthless (no offense...) country. There was no genocide all right and 1915 was a period I would want to forget if I was an armenian, my nation treachearously backstabbing my host country's army in wartime, burning helpless Turkish villages, murdering unarmed civilians including infants, and getting themselves deported to somewhere in the process,etc... Also, it doesn't really help you invading Azeri land, as if your land was not enough for your tiny population. Damn, we have 15 million people stiffed up in Istanbul and Azeri's being our nephews I don't see any reconciliation in near future unless some Armenians realize they're brainwashed or no genocide happened at all... Besides being inaccurate and henious, the lie of genocide is also pathetic and you'd better invent something new.