ozzyoi
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Posts posted by ozzyoi
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voter,
I agree with your analysis on the tc army. I understand the connection you are making with army + documents + genocide. This is something irrespective of what comes out, I just hope it comes out. I believe it is more important to simply know the truth.
The only point you need to understand about turks regarding cyprus is...whether it was the army or the gvt who organised it, nobody in tc cares. You will find that a very large majority of turks, if they had to face what they were facing in cyprus again, they would do it all the same again. I dont believe anyone has any regrets. Nothing mattered back then, and nothing matters now. It was only important that no more turks were being killed by hellenic greed. Politics will sort itself out in time. It is my opinion that kktc recognition and a federation of greek and turk cypriots is inevitable.
egern.net,
You cannot be a good citizen of any country and also have an agenda of self-determination. Why do you think it is any different for tc? Why do you think this doesnt apply to armenians?
You must decide, do you want to be a good or a bad citizen first. After you decide on this, the rest of your direction will follow more easily.
You cant tell me your happy to read my post about becoming tc citizens and being compensated. And then go on to tell 'why shoudnt they self-determine'? Citizenships come with conditions. Amongst these conditions is the protection of the state. How will you be a good citizen and divide the state?
I know many many armenians will disagree with me on what Im about to say but....I will be honest with you all. Firstly I must point out that nothing anyone can say or do can justify a genocide.
I beieve there were large numbers of ottoman armenians who were very very loyal citizens. I also believe that large numbers were not. Do any of you guys believe that the same romantic/contradictory way of thinking of self-determination whilst a citizen of another nation...did this infuence at all the tragic decisions made by the ottoman army leaders? Is egern.net line of thinking any different today?
samvelT,
You have misunderstood me. I didn't say the genocide was caused by corrupt politicians and army officers. The 'mess' I talk about is not relevant to the genocide. I speak more of domestic issues. You need to understand that the genocide is not a mess that most turks place high on the priority list on a day to day life. Bad welfare, general corruption, greed, financial gap between rich and poor, extreme ideologies, freedom of thought and speach etc etc. This is the mess I'm talking about.
I disaree with you about soldiers being seen as 'just ordinary people'. Soldiers are order takers. Not just tc, but in any country and throughout history this is the case. A simple soldier exists to carry out the orders of their commanding officers. They are not given the responsibility of making moral judgements and decisions. A good army requires discipline. Discipline is the carrying out of orders without fail to the best of your ability even if death is required. Responsibility must be placed on the order makers, not takers.
Also, I want you to understand something. I am not making excuses for anyone. Im not saying 'feel sorry for them for they dont know or dont understand' either. I am simply saying that this is the reality in tc. The status quo. Im not saying anything more than this.
So do you consider me thruthful or a joker?
I agree with western participation for the reasons you have outlined and they are correct and constructive. But how can you also not doubt them the minute they open their mouth to say anything. To me the eu and america is the equal gold medal winner for lies, double standards and hypocricy. It is one thing to have them contribute, but it is very difficult to respect anything they have to say. They have an arrogance that is not backed by their history. They like being on a moral high ground even though they are the kings of the gutter. This is why I dislike their participation. This is why I believe we must sort this out alone, because when we do it this way we will know its genuine when its done. There will be nobody to blame and point fingers. It will be pure from outside influences and motives. I dont care how long more it takes to achieve it this way, I just believe this is the way it should happen. And no Im not dreaming, there is sooooooooo much work to do to get there and Im aware of it. But I just don't believe the strategy that has been followed by both nations for the last 90 years is going to achieve the desired outcome. There must be a change in direction.
It has to move away from the 'you did it, no I didnt' mentality. Armenians have to learn this isnt working for them, it is working against them. Turks have to learn that its ok & very noble to admit ones wrongs for it will make you better and stronger. This is why I think this issue between our people cannot be solved via this method. We need to go back to the simple stuff. First we must decide if we want to be friends again and coexist peacefully like we know we can and have so in the past. If we can engrave this into our hearts, minds and souls and make this the primary objective we will have a better chance. We really need to rebuild bridges between us. Bridges between ordinary people for simple reasons. And make saying 'you did it, no i didnt' a mortal sin. hahaha, and this is my dreamworld you may say........
Thanks guys
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egern.net,
Here you are talking about kktc again. I listed numerous similarities between kktc for turks and nagorno karabak for armenians. Firstly do you believe they are the same, or do you think differently? I know definitey that the two incidents are identical in my opinion. I still have not heard your response to my question to you.....
'This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.' Which one are you ??????
Please answer my question so I know your position.
Armenians returning to their native lands and then creating self-determination and joining with ROA. Do you really believe this? Do you think you are realistic or a dreamer? At best, armenians wil become tc citizens and live forever as good citizens, and thats about all. They will be compensated financially, land etc and thats about as good as it will get.
What happened for 2000 years does not mean anything. It does not equate to whats going to happen for another 2000 years. You are a very young, naive and blindly patriotic. Im not trying to offend you, they are actually very good traits...but better served if you want to be a soldier for your country.
voter,
Now I'm thinking we are getting to be on the same page. You've got it in my opinion. The army is exactly what you say they are. Majority people are not turanists but the army is. There is no doubt that the army is still the most powerful body in tc. The good news is, their power is slowly sinking. I know most armos dont like erdogan, but most turks do. This is taking place thanks to him. He is very slowly but surely undermining the army and putting them back in their place.
Im not sure I agree fully about your link between present tc army and genocide, but I know what you're trying to say.
Believe me I don't like the army and its power and some of their philosophies. This is why I personally wont be doing my military service.
samvelT,
I agree with much of what you say. Nobody cares enough about this topic in eu. This is why I dont listen much to their opinion on this matter. tc is in a mess but its not the mess it was in a decade or two decades ago. The mess was created by corrupt politicians and the army. All I know is this is an issue that must be resolved between turks and armenians. I don't give much credibility to what who has and who hasnt recognised the genocide. To me it is worthless what parliament A or parliament B thinks. I think it is a huge waste of effort & resources personally all these years. People may agree or disagree with me, but I can tell you this much....the more parliaments or countries that the armenian lobby succeeds to recognise the genocide...the further away you will drive tc from recognition. The method and philosophy used by the lobby is in contradiction to psychological techniques used to attract an admission.
The whole world still cannot make tc change their mind on kktc. tc is happy to go it alone against the whole world. Do you think they would be any different with the armenians?This is a very interesting topic all on it own that we may or may not get into. But it is not in line with the thread topic so I do apologise for straying the conversation elsewhere.
I just think that nobody else is of any good to us. We (turks & armenians) must solve this amongst ourselves. All I know is that before resolving the genocide question we must build trust. We must convince one another that the primary objective is to become friends again. I feel this is the key to everything. We must convince each other that there is anger but not hate. Things can be forgiven, but not forgotten.
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voter,
You said 'your assumtion Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire is nice'. This is not an assumption, it is fact. You need to move forward and accept this.
And yes, if they are not the same, it shoud be easier to recognise as genocide. They probably would if they accepted or believed or were knowedgeable enough. But they don't and weve already talked about the reasons for this.
There are some things in turkey I dont believe you have a good understanding of. Turks dont have land claims for balkans and nth iraq. This does not represent the large majority of turks. All it represents is a very small minority of dreamers. Turks only have claims in terms of political and cultural influence in these areas. Why? Tc has interests in these areas. There is nothing wrong with any country taking a pro-active role in areas outside its borders for their own interests and strategies. Is this abnormal?
The other main issue I dont understand is that how turks define themeselves, how they choose to think is really not anybodies business. It means nothing what eu or anyone for that matter thinks about how turks should see themselves. They can see themeselves however way they please. This is the evolution of a people that will take place irrespective of anything else. Nobody has the right to dictate what is civilised or uncivilised. If they do it correctly they will benefit, if they do it wrongly they will pay the price. Either way it only concerns turks.
You may like to believe that eu will pressure tc into recognition. This is my opinion but I dont believe eu even cares about the genocide. They only see the genocide as another issue to apply pressure to tc in making compromises. They will never make recognition a priority or a criteria.
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Shenyatsi,
Why must I be the one to remind you what the subject if the thread is, you're a moderator. Ive made several posts in the last few weeks, none of these come even remotely near a denial of the genocide. This thread is about the various scenarios that may arise as a result of tc's recognition.......simple people like you and I are discussing this matter.
Fisrtly, I am not the lawyer for tc. I represent my opinion and that only. No offence, I personally dont even care what you consider normal or abnormal. Im not here to convince anyone of anything...just share ideas and opinions via a civilised discussion.
I dont even have any interest in what the outcome is with respect to tc recognition, giving back of land, compensation etc. My everything is in Australia. It doesnt affect me in any way.
Unfortunately, yes, you are after a perfect world, a nirvana, but I personally dont believe you will get it. For this reason, I think you may be waiting for even longer than 500 years.
Egern.net,
Firstly you should rethink your logic that 2 wrongs make a right OR that one sides wrongdoings can justify another sides wrongdoings. They do not cancel one another out! Wrong is still wrong, and right is still right no matter what spin you put on it.
- Yes, Turks have self-determined. Its called tc.
- The cypriot turks have a right to self-determination, because they live there. The armenians do not live in anatolia(irrespective of how)
- They have to recognise it as independant, they created the border. It would be nonsense not to. Were you genuinely expecting tc not to?
As for your question "But why Turks created a new country in the Northern Cyprus??? Im going to pretend I didnt read this question. This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.
'greeks butchering turks' & 'azeris butchering armenains'
'enosis' & 'azeri version of turanism'
'tc moves to save turk lives' & ' roa moves to save armenian lives'
'tc wins battlefield but loses at UN' & 'roa wins battlefield but loses at UN'
'no more cypriot turks butchered' & 'no more armenians butchered'
'true story of cyprus' & 'true story of nagorno karabag'
Any of this ring a bell???????????????????????Now I want you to answer my question that I asked before.
'This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.' Which one are you ??????
"Hasn’t world map changed and turned upside down???' . Yes it has. anatolia being apart of armenia has changed and turned upside down in armenian peoples minds and maps, nowhere else. kktc being independant on the map has changed and turned upside down. In the minds and maps of turks, nowhere else. These are all BS, its not happening anywhere other than in our own minds.
Also, I must inform you of some certain facts you are overlooking or not knowledgeable about. kktc has a physical/actual border, western armenia does not. kktc has an economy that is trading with most of the world (technically illegaly, but actually doing so), western armenia does not. kktc has a democratically elected gvt physically on the land itself, western armenia does not. kktc has school, libraries, hositals, power, communication, toursim etc etc etc, western armenia does not.The greeks and eu had to have a referendum to decide whether they wanted to join under a federation. You can't create a federation with something that is not existant. The greeks and eu acknowledge the existance of a state. .They dont however acknowledge its legitimacy. All kktc needs is UN recognition and its ready to go forward and integrate into the world community immediately as everything is functional .western armenia does not exist in any way shape or form other than in the minds of armenians.
Lets start calling things the way they really are!
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egern.net,
I dont care to answer your questions the way you wish for them to be answered. I either answer the way I like, if you don't like that, please dont communicate with me. Most are answered anyway, just read.
The right to self-determination? This does not apply to armenians, you already are self determined. Its called ROA. The right to self-determination applies to peoples like kurds and palestinians. If you cannot differentiate between compensating individuals for assets seized & the somehow miraculously giving back land of historical western armenia.....I feel sorry for you. You are going to one day come to terms with a major newsflash that it won't happen. Im sorry if Im offending you, but what fairy tales have you been reading? Im sorry to say but the entire world map would need to be changed and turned upside down if we were to follow your logic.
Speaking of maps, have you even seen the up-to-date world map lately? I think you may find the one in ROA is a little out-of-date. And you want to talk about 'normal'?
This discussion is getting hijacked once again towards animosity. I prefer to discuss things in an environment where there is no aggression. If it can be done, I prefer to stay and discuss these issues with respect. If I'm rubbing people up the wrong way and Im not welcome, Im a bog boy and can handle it, just ask me to leave and I'd be more than happy to leave and find someone else who can.
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mig35,
One cannot deny that turks abroad hold a similar position as those in tc. I would love to say I have a single definitive answer as to why, but I know there isn't.
I believe it can be attributed to several reasons why this is so. I will list them in simplistic form but am aware they can open a whole can of worms themeselves.
1- Its simply not a pressing issue, a current affair on the minds of turks in general
2- many turks abroad too are educated at some stage either in tc itself, or abroad via tc gvt texts as well
3- pride wont allow them to even contemplate the possibility (close minded). This is similar to a blind belief in tc gvt, not just this topic, but all topics
4- we turks in general have a complex of not having friends internationally(justified or not, this is a reality) . The immediate defensive reactions are attributed to this in general
5- turks are intelligent people, but lazy people. This laziness dominates their ability to seek, ask and probe further other than what they are told.
6- turks are a product of society no more or less than anyone else, a world full of litigation is one to be feared of. The potential of compensation is enough alone to drive people into denial.
7- Im going to stick my neck out here on this one and say this....I think you will have more turks accepting of the genocide if there wasn't such a total and blanket denial of atrocities committed by armenians towards turks at the time. I know this is a huge debate on its own, but I dont really want to further this discussion because this is not what the thread is.
One must also look at the phenomena that makes people become more patriotic once they move abroad. This is also not a factor that should be underestimated. As for the younger generation of turks born, living and bred abroad, this is really a non-issue. The attitude is 'well what do you want me to do about it, it happened 100yrs ago and it aint my business'. I know these are generalisations but they are heavily prevalent ones.
Personally I haven't had any tc education in any way shape or form. Ive lived in australia all my life. The topic of the genocide is not even something Ive barely heard or witnessed in the home environment.Ive simply not been exposed to any influence in any way.
In the establishing of my opinion whether there was a genocide or not was very simple. I just needed to make myself think on a purely humane manner. I put my turkish or australian patriotism aside. Also put my loyalty to the islamic faith aside. All I see is human loss of life on a large scale that shouldn't have happened. I say shouldn't because it is be attributed to human decisions. Decisions were made, right or wrong. If it was a cold blooded extermination and death march, it was wrong. Even if it wasn't, and it was a deportation for strategic purposes, at the end of the day the ottoman gvt states they were responsible for the protection of these people. Be it gangs, be it starvation, be it disease, be it whatever...the promised protection was not delivered. Someone must take responsibility for this.
I dont care whose life it is, life is life. No life is more or less important than anothers.
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Voter,
You need to understand the difference between nazi's and ottomans. The continuity of state I speak of is of vital importance for all of us to understand. There was no 'nazi empire of hitler'. It was the 'nazi party within the german state'. The sate is the same as it is today, more or less, excluding the reunification that has traspired since. It is this continuity of state that I speak of. This is why germany is liable. This continuity in state does not exist with ottomans and tc. Do you understand my point?
Your last 2 lines...well explained, I think youve hit it on the head. Fear is a greater driver of decisions and emotions, not just for turks, for all people. This above everything is a well known scientific fact. So good point.
Kars,
Similar to your disclaimer, I must too state mine that is of a similar nature. In addition, I have never any intention of offending anyone intentionally, if I have, either forgive me or bring it to my attention and we can resolve it.
I believe you have not really misunderstood, but maybe viewed my posts through 'foggy' glasses. Youve chosen to bring forward some of my statements not wholly and fully, but only partially....
1- Firstly one must know reality to admit it. People in tc do not know, no matter what you may have yourself think. There is no reason to believe they do....just look at the texts, libraries, laws, media etc etc. They simply are not ready as a gvt or people, be it emotionally or intellectually. The readiness I elude to is about awareness.Will you dispute or agree with me that, as tc stands right now, its impossible?This is not a debate of whether they should or shouldnt. I am stating that they cannot due to inability and many defficiencies at this point in time. Don't underestimate 'national pride'. I don't think you can down play the influences of 'national pride' on a peoples actions and thinking. Just look at armenians in general, do you believe they have any less national pride than the average turk? History has proven 'national pride or whatever' has shaped many events, policies be it good or bad.
2- Once again you've not reading my entire post fully. I never blamed the armenian lobby for where the situation is today between the nations. But don't for a moment be naive to think that the lobby is helping bridge the gap either.I don't know about your position is but my hope is for the coming closer of the 2 proples, not drifting apart. I clearly stated what in my opinion was the cause for the gap widening, and it was a combination of turk and armenian contributions. I am openely admitting turkish contribution, are you denying armenian contribution in making the matter worse?
3- I understand that it is your assertion that tc is culpable for the crimes of the ottomans. Can you please factualise this for me so I too can understand why you say this. And Im aware the denial from tc is a form of conspiring, however this does not replace or equate to the perpetrating of a crime and inheriting culpability. I eagerly await your posts on this matter.
4- I am not insisting anything. I was lacking in knowledge, hence why I asked for assistance on this matter. You are either very selective or careless in how you read my posts....
'Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones."
There is no insistance bro, Im looking for answers. Not someone to blame. The reality is, Ive been looking for real factual information to ascertain the how's and why's of land being given back. So far nobody is giving me anything other than opinions which are not based on any international law or relevant precedents. Rational & logical thinking will tell you the giving back of land is highly questionable. Maybe to individuals, but certainly not ROA It will also tell you that tc, as a separate entity from the ottomans does not owe the armenian people who've suffered anything other than recognition & empathy. Which it should be able to do easily anyway.
I hope Ive been ale to clarify my viewpoints on sime issues for you better. Try to understand that some things are my definitive personal viewpoints. There are also issues I don't carry a viewpoint and am looking and researching to be able to have one. This is why I asked for assistance to bounce ideas off people. There is always something that someone else knows that I don't.
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Hi everyone,
Voter,
I agree with you on many points you raise regarding how turks can come to terms and move forward with the genocide. The only point I think you're overlooking however is that this is not a discussion about ethnic continuity. This is about the continuity of a State. It is not about the wrongdoings of an entire race. This would be a tragic generalisation of epic proportions that will lead to nowhere fast.
I get the feeling that some people are just 'hoping' TC will recognise, apologise and return whatever needs to be returned. If you are talking about posessions such as homes, land etc...this is one thing. Whether TC chooses to separate themselves from their forefathers (ottomans) on a spiritual level or not, the reality is that the 2 are unquestionably separate entities. This is the basis on which I am asking my question. On what legalities or modern precedents are there for 1 state/entity to be liable for the crimes of another state/entity. Guys, let's really put the emotional and moralistic stuff aside and have a technical & legal discussion here. After all, this is an issue that will be one day (hopefully soon) discussed, negotiated and resolved on legalities, not emotions.
As for this talk about a re-unified or greater Armenia. I don't really wish to discuss this topic. This idea in my opinion is as comical as Turanism which I also laugh at. These are lovely idealistic, nationalistic, patriotic and warming thoughts and emotions. But also incredibly naive and not in touch with reality. Hey, but this is only my opinion so yeh, carry on.
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Thanks to everyone who responded and tried to help me. Ive realised I needed to further clarify my question. Im aware of the type of measures and steps that must be taken in order to make the wrong right. However, the examples and precedents I was looking for were more along the lines of TC compensating for acts of a different entity in the ottoman empire? I have no interest in debating the connections or separations between the 2 entities, needless to say legally and technically I dont believe one can argue that they are the same.
Whereas with the jewish holocaust, the german state seems to have greater continuity with the one existant today.
My seeking for information was more based on this notion.
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Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones.
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Mig 35,
I don't quite understand your consant emphasizing of 'poor people in anatolia'. I don't recall using this term, and Im sorry you've misunderstood me if youve thought Ive implied it. Im not for a moment suggesting that is what they are and its sooooo hard on them etc. I have a name for them as they dont seek knowledge and iIcalled them 'sheep, or asleep, or naive or just plain lazy'. All I was saying was the fact that by far and large, they are not ready to make such a recognition. The reasons they aren't are plentifull and I guess we all know what they are. And its not just the people, the TC gvt is in the same boat. There are only 2 remaining options for the gvt and they are drawing near fast (which is a good thing). The options are they have to accept and move forward, or they will deny with proof and shock the world.
Your 2nd point is right on the money. The initiative however must be taken by the gvt for such a large movement and shift in a nations thinking. The difficulty with turk ex-pats abroad voicing such things are very difficult. The difficulty is real. It's virtually impossible to action this whilst the TC gvt has its current stance. They are barely open to the idea of talking about it.
The TC gvt and its people are beyond even the thought that their ancestors could commit such a thing. And with the armenian lobby being as aggressive as it is, all it does is place the turks into a defensive position. It cant fight it so it denies it. It cant accept it because pride wont allow it to concede when the challenge is on. It would make it look gutless to its own people. This is like a schoolyard fight. All it shows is the immaturity of dealing with confrontation. I see it as a combination of a blinding turkish pride & an armenian lack of not seeing how they are fuelling the situation away from reconciliation, not inviting it.
SamvelT,
All I was stating is that armenians have every right to say 'theres nothing to talk ( bargain ) about. It's conclusive. It is turks who are wanting to bargain. And I agree with your analogy about 'common courtesy' about stepping on someones toes.
However your parallels between the US and its indigenous inhabitants does carry in my opinion some idealistic merit. But in saying that, I think the thought is not equally applicable to turkey and armenia. So I do see some of how you see it, but not exactly like you see it.
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Voter,
You seem to believe that Turks know of this truth. Im afraid that an overwhelming majority do not. I personally cannot understand the difficulty in making an admission of such, especially if TC is not even the party liable. The fact of the matter is, as a result of the official history being taught for such an extensive period of time, to make a U turn under such circumstances is not thinkable or realistic. I don't believe not just the gvt, but neither the citizens are ready for such an admission. There reasons they are not are two-fold. Firstly they are not in the view that they have committed genocide and the historical texts solidify this further. Secondly, the hostile environment created by armenians in general does not encourage any such change. This is no longer a fact finding discussion, this is a political debate. In the heart of politics is bargaining and compromise. This is all Im saying. Also, I disagree that this situation is a result of an ataturk personality. He is dead and buried. If people in TC have not made any progress in whatever field it may be including thought. This is their own doing. They must be seen as sheep, or asleep, or naive or just plain lazy. I dont believe in blaming everything that goes wrong on the deceased.
SamelT,
My use of 'your kind' is reserved for the fascist type. I didn't think all and sundry would take ownership as I dont believe every armenian is blood thirsty. However I wasn't making any generalisations to begin with as my posts are all directed specifically towards certain people whom are clearly named.
I understand the notion of 'theres nothing to bargain' from the armenian side. And I personally don't seek any bargaining on whether it was or wasnt genocide. But I do believe it is naive to think that this is something more that a political game being played on a global platform as it stands. Reputations, pride and a whole host of factors come into play. This is something that requires a massive shake up of the whole entire TC and its people. It's a huge task because there has been a denial for 90 years. It wasn't addressed back when it could have been easy. Understand it's not easy, not just for Turks but for most peoples that would find themeselves in a similar situation.
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Phrygian,
There is truly only one way to describe you, a blood thirsty fascist. I'm not going to bother explaining the downsides of the beast you are. Tell me however, were you born this way or did you get better at it with age, much like a fine wine? Your mentality will take your people light years backwards. God save your race from your kind.
You will eventually tire from blaming others and circumstances for the state of ROA. You will eventually face the grim reality as your blinkers will unfold one day that the nation is what it is as a result of its own leaders. I will however fedex to you a container of tissues for your sooking and whining whilst you continue to finger point and blame the rest of the world for your problems.
JazzVaz,
Have you or have you not seen me admit the genocide?I believe I have. Yet you seem adament on still calling it the end of the discussion. You are confusing, but mainly yourself I think. You make it clear you've heard it all, and it's all the same. I think the number of Turks who are out their whom are recognising the genocide are growing by the day, and are wanting the resolution of this matter for the benefit of both peoples. It is evident that your minds, ears & hearts are sooooo closed that you wouldn't even hear a Turk screaming at 120 dB the want and the need to acknowledge the past and pave a peaceful way for the generations to come. This is something I can tell YOU from experience. Your kind too have nothing new to say to me that I haven't already heard, and YOU can trust me on this.
It's really not that difficult. Actions speak louder than words. Look at the actions of the Armenian Cause, is it likely to create further animosity and coldness......or is it likely to assist recognition and peace?
And no, you don't need to tell me about the tragic flaws of the policies of TC. It just seems Armenians are very informed and obsessed about the flaws of TC, yet have not a single gram of clue of their own flaws in their approach. The arena is simply not condusive for TC to recognise the genocide and both sides are guilty of creating this atmosphere. It is this atmosphere I hope one day changes. And for all those who don't believe that compromises must be made along the way by both sides, YOU are gravely mistaken. Im not saying for a moment that it is fair or unfair that they should be made. All Im saying is that they must be made, otherwise the status quo will remain for an eternity which is not something I find something to look forward to. And if anyone does, Im sure you're of the 'Phrygian kind', sharpening your knives and teeth...or you're just plain dellusional.
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Oh if it aint the Moderator to the rescue! Yes, a sure way of silencing things we don't like to hear...ban them!!!!What a man, wow, the power!!!!I wish I could be like you Mr Moderator.
Firstly, I do believe in the genocide. But if you could actually filter out the inbred hatred and your stale outlook on the issue, you'd be able to understand from my posts that I am not a denier of anything.
Why don't you make your cheap threats to people like Phrygian who have the stench of hatred and anger oozing from their souls? If you wanted to use this medium for positive, peaceful, reconciliatory & honourable purposes you would have acted differently. But I'm not here to tell you how to run your forum, it's clear you know exactly what you're doing. I didn't 'think' telling Phrygian a few ideas of mine was 'telling people how to live their lives'. Sorry for assuming a forum was exactly that, a forum whereby we can talk, debate and exchange ideas.
What a lovely paradox, an 'unwelcomed guest'! That's like you being a 'caring & loving jerk'. If you don't want Turks here, then change your thread title from ' The discussion about genocide, what if Turks agree, Hope to see Turks here' TO ' The discussion about genocide, what if Turks agree, Hope to see Turks here gone'.
If it makes it easy, please do me the favour of banning me. I'd rather you guys be happy within your little nestled cocoon world away from the realities and/or other ways of thinking in life.
Alternatively, I can be seen as a Turk who has a major common ground with most Armenians and has the potential to be a friend. If you don't care for having Turkish friends (intellectually) and prefer to remain as you are in your hatred and blindness, please ban me...Id prefer to not be here anyway
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Phrygian,
Your type of mentality is the reason why the Armenian Cause will never succeed with any average Turk, let alone one that is open minded to recognition such as myself.
Your statements are nothing other than sweeping generalisations, which is by the way a great insight into you as a person and what you believe in.
With what arrogance and audacity do you question the discussion of this topic with Turks on an equal footing?When did God appoint YOU supreme discussion judge?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black? So what if Turkey is disintegrating and rotting? How is this your business? Have you no life that you are so concerned about the internal affairs of another country?
Id be more than happy to post for everyone to read of the corruption, instability, lawlessness etc etc etc in Armenia today. But no, I'm not one who believes that I can achieve peaceful neighbourly relations by airing my neighbours dirty laundry at every opportunity. I call this the epitome of stupidity in terms of trying to achieve an objective!
Artsakh....I personally couldn't care about this matter. Although I am Turkish, I personally do not feel any connection with Azeris. They are a country of their own, they need to learn to stand on its own two feet. They wanted their own block of land, they can look after it themeselves.
And your silly justifications of generalising Turks all under the flagship of Turanism. Turanism is no more or less romantic than the hilarious ideas that Armenians get about the 3 r's! Turanism does not represent the thinking of an entire race, merely the 'brethren of idiocy' I speak of earlier that sees no boundary between Turks or Armenians, it seems to poison all.
Thankyou for your outrageously humble, welcoming and modest offer of help to cure my people. Why don't you firmly place your tail between your legs, head back over the border and help your own. Charity begins at home, worry about helping others after you get your own backyard in order.
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Hi,
Firstly to Rev. Justice,
With respect to your list of 'well thought out' criterias to ensure a long-lasting peace between Turkey & Armenia for the present and the future.........wasn't it this kind of romantic idealistic absurdity that got you believing the Armenians could commit treason, rebel and revolt and get away with it that got you into this mess to begin with?
I don't think anything that even remotely crawls near the 'once again romantic' thought process that land concessions, monetary compensations etc are to become reality is ludicrous. Maybe in the land of the fairygodmother, cinderella and shrek it may just stand a chance! Acceptance of a genocide is suicide, and the rules of the game are such that (in the world we live in) it makes it unthinkable for any nation to admit such a crime. And dont cite Nazi Germany, the world is a very different place today...let's keep it real!
A call out to all the 'brethren of idiocy' be it Turks or Armo's.The REALISTIC approach would be to seek an acceptance and/or apology of a moralistic type to allow closure so 'life' can flourish once more. It must be true, from the heart and more importantly the mutual position and understanding of the two nations.
All this moronic talk of 'we will fight, we will get back, fancy an Armenian flag and a cuppa on Mt Ararat, blah blah blah blah blah. Please, what next.........dodge bullets like keanu Reaves in Matrix?
Archimed...grow up little boy...for every Turk that has shit his pants from an Armenian there's a story of the reverse...even if you don't want to believe it to be so. At the end of the day, it is as relevant as why do monkeys eat the parasites off their scalps.
The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree
in Genocide
Posted
samvelT,
You dont need to explain to me all the reasons why armenians shouldnt change their approach and pressure. I understand this. However I dont believe the methods used till today is going to work. I'm aware that there are many armenian views on this topic too. Conditions need to be removed. Genocide recognition needs to be put on ice. Diplomatic and trade relations need to begin. Cultural / arts / sporting ties need to be made. The hatred and anger needs to die. Pride and stubborness needs to removed. The genocide issue needs to be an independant topic for turkish and armenian beurocrats, lawmakers and historians. It should not have any connection to anything else between the nations. Maybe my ideas sound simple and rosy, but this is what I believe needs to happen.
Armenian citizenships for turks? Sure, if they want to live in ROA.
What is ROA doing in order to secure or attract security for its existance?
Being right doesn't equal getting everything your way. You can still be right but find yourself alone or find yourself facing a dead end. It just doesnt guarantee happiness.
Im happy to talk further on this topic. I think it's a positive topic.
Egern.net,
The kurds have a huge population in tc. Now do you still like the chances of armenians?
Your self-determination is very different to that of quebec. You openely voice your dream of uniting with ROA. This is division! This is being a bad citizen.
When you become a citizen of a country, you take an oath. In the case of tc, you swear an allegiance to the protection of tc, its constitution and its borders. If you make this allegiance with a dream of self-determination or re-unification with another nation. This will make you a liar and a cheat. It's called treason. Treason can carry a very heavy punishment in tc.
Also you should know that any international laws regarding self-determination do not supercede national laws unless agreed to by the constitution. In this case it does not in tc.
You will find a brick wall with this theory of self-determination in tc no matter which way you go. It's your decision whether you want to pursue it any further. For me it's getting a bit old.
Happy and safe xmas to all the christian brethren.