[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Thug : Well, okay, go ahead and live your 'war fantasies' in your mind every day.

You seem to be happy about hatred continuing between Armenians and Turks. And, you judge people according to their ethnic origin....not according to thier individuality (mindset, character, attitudes). This is sad and annoying !

I am just a human being who just happens to be Turkish. I consider myself a 'human being' before I am 'European', 'Turkish', 'from Istanbul' etc. But, I don't think you can understand my concept of humanity. You are an ultra-nationalist. I am against all nationalists; Turkish, Armenian, Korean or whatever. Nationalism is an ideology based on discrimination.

But anyway, I will continue to have positive feelings towards peace between Turkey and Armenia.

I guess I should exit now from the forum with this last message of mine......Thug's extreme nationalism and silly war fantasies and no one's speaking out against his views have hurt my feelings.

Anyway, all of you (except Thug and others who think like him...I don't want anything to do with such bigoted people) just remember me as a humanist and anti-nationalist Turk who feels very sad about what happened in the past to Armenians.

Cheers and farewell,

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

I question for you, Bora.

Do you realize that you, with your attitudes, are in a very small minority in Turkey?

Correct, Kars. But of course, we can never know the percentage

Well....it is not easy to change the mindset of most people here who were given incorrect things as part of their history education. There is also the factor of high-dose nationalism that shows its ugly face in many aspects of the society here....also there are the attitudes of past and present politicians....so, unfortunately, it will be very hard for the situation to change.

Oh...sorry about 'making a mess of the quotes' thing. I won't cause confusion like that again

Thug : Well, ok, I understand and sympathise with some of your thoughts. But if you say things like 'I wanna be a part of the war against Turkey.... 'Give us this part of Turkey'..., I don't think we can have proper and effective communication.

Well....folks, anyway, if one day there would be a panel or something like that in Armenia, that is open to everyone, then invite me and I will come. I am no politician or writer....but I would like to be a part of it.

But, are you sure I would be alright and welcome in Armenia ? For example, I went into an Armenian chat room and one person told me that he/she hates all Turks, whatever their views are. Then, another chatter told me that I wouldn't be welcome in Armenia. Then, on the Web site of a pub in Yerevan, the words were clearly written that they play all kinds of music except Turkish music.....come on folks, that's racism on a cultural level...that IS very bad and sad.

Things like this make me wonder whether even my humanist attitudes are appreciated. Sometimes I wonder...I am nearly 40....and have maybe about 20 years more to live (with my heavy-drinking and unhealthy-food lifestyle, I doubt I will last beyond 60).....so why am I wasting my time fighting nationalism and racism on the Internet....maybe I should go somewhere far from Turkey, Armenia, Middle East and all these troubled places and enjoy life on a remote island.

I mean....just makes me wonder

But, seriously, I hope that peace will prevail.

Cheers,

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Armenia_Turkey_peace hello.

excuse mu for my english 'cuz i've forgotten many rules of grammatics

but you (turks) must understand that:

Armenian Genocide is not a thing that ever happened in Osman Empire and we know about it 'cuz we are armenians

My Ancestors were from cities that are in Turkey now. Some of them had rank 'Pasha', 'Aga' and other till ~1890s. And most of them were killed then . As died 10 of 12 children of my grand-grand ma which was from Nahijevan (which is in Azerbaijan now)

And big part of armenians has such stories when their ancestors were killed. And we remember. And I don't want any peace. I want war!

So....you would like to see war between Armenia and Turkey ?! Sad !

And there are many descendants of armenians who lives in Turey nowadays, especially in Amshen, Hopa and so on. they were muslimized but remember (not all) that are armenians, but they can't say that they are armenians and say tha they're turks or kurds. Your governors know about this and our know too. You may not know about this 'cuz you live in Istanbul.

I am sure what you write above in the paragraph is true. I have heard about this many times too.I agree that this is sad.

And I want to say that you must confirm with Genocide laws and return us some teriitories by Sevres Treaty not 'cuz we want it as "pay for killed armenians" but because it is our lands ('till 1894 and 1914 up to 80% of population there were armenians and they were very important part of turkish society).

This 'giving land' thing cannot happen. You know that too....and, I am not saying it as a nationalist (in fact, as I wrote before, I am anti-nationalist)...it just cannot happen and also doesn't make sense. So for instance, all the Australian land should be given back to Aboriginal people ? There are so many examples in the world. How far must we go back in time ? Besides, there wasn't an Armenian republic, kingdom, etc. there when those terrible incidents of the early 20 th century happened. Anyway, I am sure only few Armenians find this 'give us land' attitude logical.

Turkish government should accept the 'atrocities' done against Armenians and apologise. 'Giving land' issue should not even be talked about...as for monetary compensation, this is a difficult and complex issue both politically and legally.....but I personally feel that it would be nice if Turkey offered compensation at least on some individual level. It is sadly true that many Armenians lost their land, houses and other property that time.

So we want Genocide confirmation as truth agreement because when someone degrees Genocide we may think that there were not killed people and it's our invention. And it seems insult for us.

The most important is confirmation of genocide and not saying that it's our invention. And saying 'forgive' and so on but not (as many turks say) that if you will have a chance you'll repeat this action.

Personally for me, it would be all right if Turkey accepts what happened as 'genocide'. But do you think that this is realistically possible on a political and even to some extent legal level ? If Turkey accepts what happened as 'atrocities'; apologise; open the Turkey-Armenia border; and possibly give some compensation on some individiual level, wouldn't all this go a long way towards mending a lot of bad feeling ?

Cheers,

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

I will agree with you on this one. But your comparison (Armenian attitude towards Turks and vice versa) is invalid and worthless. There is a victim/perpetrator issue, don’t you agree? You can’t equate the two.

Of course I understand your point. But try to understand my way of thinking too....The people who are of the same ethnic origin as me did terrible things so many years ago and all that was beyond my control. Why should I face any hatred because of that ? Anyway, I consider myself a human being who just happens to have Turkish ethnic origin.

I am sure you know what I mean here.

But, anyway… I’ve been in Turkey many times, and I am in agreement with you that the majority of Turks don’t hate Armenians outright. I would rather call their attitude towards non-local Armenians (like myself) “indifferent”, often times – “curious”, and that’s about it.

I noticed that educated people in Turkey are more inclined to talk about our problems in a friendly manner and don’t usually exhibit hostility. In the countryside (outside major cities) the situation is a bit different – curiosity takes over. Occasionally I encountered hostility, but it was very rare.

The same thing could be said about Armenian attitude towards Turks. As you may well know, Turkish citizens regularly visit Armenia, there are even some Turkish-owned businesses in Armenia. I don’t think they feel uncomfortable there, on personal level.

Recognition of the Genocide is rather a moral issue, which had been politicized over the years. Both Armenians and Turks are there to live next to each other for centuries to come. However, some moral issues have to be settled. Don’t you think so?

Sure...I agree with you here.

Now, the ball is in your court.

Cheers,

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

How I or anybody else believe on existence of open-minded turks, when we not only in history, but everyday feeling a hate against us.

So...you put ALL the Turks into one category and say that NONE of them is open-minded and that ALL of them hate Armenians....come on, I can't believe you sincerely think like that.

I have often fought against my own countrymen who wrote racist things against Armenians. Would you fight

against your own countrymen who write racist things against Turks ?

Believe me...the majority of Turks don't hate Armenians. It is just that the discussion of Armenian genocide has been made a very sensitive topic here in Turkey (the effect of education is important here).

I feel that some ultra-nationalist Armenians want to think that all Turks hate Armenians so that they can put Turks into one category and hate them all together. There are also such people here in Turkey too...they want to put Armenians into one category and hate them all together. All this is very sad !

And.....no, dear Voter, maybe you want me to be someone who is full of hatred...but no, I am not....NOT AT ALL...JUST THE OPPOSITE.... In fact, I would sincerely fight for peace between Turkey and Armenia, as my user name indicates.

If you are really a humanist, let's together fight against racists and ultra-nationalists from both sides.

But, of course I accept that my government has to accept what hapepned in the past...see, now, many Turks who read this will hate me and call me a 'traitor'. I feel that what happened back then were definitely 'atrocities'....whether we should call them a 'genocide' is another matter...but hey, before you get angry, at me I want to say that I feel that they were MOST PROBABLY a genocide.

Peace !

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Hi again, folks. Sorry for the delay.

Well...my comments and answers to the 3 posters who wrote after my last message are as below :

*MiG-35 : Well, I cannot give you a percentage of the young Turks who think like I do However I can easily guess that unfortunately I am in the minority. How much of a minority my thoughts are, that, I don't know of course.

I don't really get opportunities to discuss this with friends outside (i.e. non-cyberworld) because my friends are quite non-political people. But I get a chance to discuss this with Turkish folks on the Internet. I have come across people who think like me but I have also been called bad names because of my thoughts.

*vovchik : Thanks for the background info on ASALA. Also, thanks for your nice comments.

As for the brainwashing issue, well yes, that unfortunately occurs here in Turkey too...just as the case is in some other countries (especially those which have had many wars and troubles in their histories).

Of course, it is needless to say that in Turkish textbooks, there is no mention of any atrocities or even anything remotely related to about what happened to Armenians in and around 1915. I wish I could be optimistic about a possible change (regarding this issue) in the near future but I am not. Right-wing nationalist rhetoric is still very strong here. Nationalism is an ideology/thought that is unfortunately difficult to shake off for people throughout the world. For example, even the private TV channels here often glorify nationalism unfortunately. Of course the development of the Internet has helped educate some people.

Facing the past in a true and humanist way will unfortunately not happen in Turkey in the foreeseeable future. I am sorry to be pessimistic about this. I wish I could be optimistic but these are my thoughts.

The only thing I can expect is for SOME change in the offical and general public thought. Even the acknowledgment that the Ittihat and Terakki government of 1915 had done many inhumane things and that these should not have been done would be good for a start. Of course, the opening of the Turkey-Armenia

border would help improve Turkey-Armenia relations. My government/s should stop blindly supporting Azerbaijan in almost every issue.

*kars : You are right. I shouldn't have made a judgment on that stuff because as you wrote, I cannot understand Armenian or Russian.

By the way, do all of you speak/understand Russian well ? Is Russian still taught at the primary school level in Armenian schools ? Or, for example, are there young people in Armenia now who cannot understand Russian at all ?

Cheers,

Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Well, dear Kars, I don't know about the Marmara and Jamanak newspapers because they are not in Turkish language but I think Agos is quite an objective newspaper. Maybe it doesn't openly say what happened was genocide but it criticises the nationalist ideology and those who deny things about the past blindly.It also gives space to personal tragedies of the past. What really touched my heart was the personal tragedies.Maybe I cannot really understand the mentality and thoughts of people who had family members who died or suffered from the atrocities of the past....but please know that I am trying to understand and sympathise. I just feel that this should not give way to hatred. By the way, whether I myself personally would call the atrocities a 'genocide' or not....would that be very important to you ? Yes, I think they PROBABLY constitute genocide. Taner Akcam, a Turkish academician and journalist writing for Agos calls it a genocide and he gives arguments for it quite clearly. The important thing is that they were crimes against humanity and I am angry at the past and current governments of my country for hiding and denying things. But what can I do personally ? Go to the parliament building and raise a sign saying 'Accept genocide/atrocities against Armenians !' ? I would possibly be beaten up there and then maybe jailed What else can I do ? Leave Turkey as a protest ?Anyway, cheers to all....having a glass of Efes Pilsen beer now :)Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Hello, Bora.No one is insulted here because of his or her national origin. In fact, your notion was already somewhat insulting. :)Welcome to the Forum. Hope we can have a rational discussion.

Thanks, Kars. Well, I had just written that in the hope that there wouldn't be any discrimination shown towards me. The ASALA thread and some people's signatures there made me upset.But, that's okay. Every country and therefore many forums have extreme nationalists writing in them. I will try not to get discouraged or too upset by that.And...sure, we can have a rational discussion...no problem there, I think :)I wish I could understand/write Armenian. I've even got a book here for learning Armenian. However, it seems sooooooo difficult to learn for someone used to Latin letters.I try to buy the weekly newspaper, Agos, regularly here. It comes out every Friday. It is primarily for the Armenian community here. But all of it is in Turkish language except two Armenian-language pages. I like that paper because it is anti-nationalist/anti-fascist and humanist. There are also two daily newspapers, Marmara and Jamanak. But I don't buy them because they are completely in the Armenian language :)Thanks to Agos, I learned a lot of things about the Armenian community here and also many new things about the past events. Cheers,Bora

[Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk]

Hello, everyone.I have newly registered.I am a Turkish guy from Istanbul, Turkey. I want to express my thoughts on the genocide issue and other issues. As you know, the Turkish governments over the years have denied that a genocide ever happened to Armenians.However, in recent years, mainly due to the positive effect of EU membership application, freedom of expression sitation has gotten better in Turkey and so a lot of people in Turkey have been able to express their thoughts on various media regarding the genocide. Of course unfortunately some of those peope were taken to court.The effect of nationalist ideoogy is still strong in Turkey. However I don't think we need to be pessimistic that one day Turkey will at least accept that 'atrocities' happened against the Armenians and at least will offer some kind of apology.I personally feel very bad about what happened to Armenians back then. The personal stories are really tragic. Not only deaths and injuries but also loss of property and having to leave one's home is very tragic.Some stuff I learned recently really made me cry.But please don't blame all Turkish peoeple and don't have a grudge against Turks in general because of what happened back then. Okay, you can rightly have a hard feeling against Turks (and others)who blindly continue to deny what happened and those who say racist things against Armenians. And one more thing, please don't forget that some people here are not able to have access to some sources and the Internet. They just know what has been taught to them in elementary/secondary school and assume that all is true. Also, over the years, people here have been exposed to nationalist ieology regarding many issues and so they accept all that without questioning it.I myself am againt ALL types of nationalist ideology, Turkish, Armenian, American, Kenyan or whatever ! Nationalism is a very unhumanist ideology. I continue to fight Turkish (and others) nationalists in some forums and speak out against them. Of course I have become unpopular with many such people because of that I am also saddened that some people here on this forum praise the terrorist organisation ASALA. I hope humanist Armenians will fight such ideology too. Armenians should teach their children about what happened BUT must not preach hatred against Turks in general.I really want good realations between Turkey and Armenia. Hatred should NOT continue. It must stop from both sides. There are already so many bad issues in the world, such as wars, destruction of nature, extinction of many animal species and famine. We humsn beings must strive together to fight such things. There is no place for blind hatred in our world. What good is it going to bring ?I will give you two examples of racism/discrimination; one from Turks against Armenians and the other from Armenians against Turks. Both these really made me quite sad and angry. In a chat room, one Turkish guy said 'I love all people except Armenians' and then continued his nasty words. And, then my other example : I planned on going to Armenia last year on holiday and I was doing some research on touristy places. I came across a Web site of a pub in Yerevan. As I was reading some stuff there, in the section about music, it said 'We play all kinds of music, except Turkish music'. That is discrimination extended to culture/music. Very sad ! Of course this put me off from going there. I know that I shouldn't generalise but then, I was just worried what response I might get from people in Armenia just due to my nationality.I repeat : Nationalism is an ideology that must be fought against.I know that I might unfortunately attract some bad responses because of what I wrote here (mainly my strong views against nationalism). Anyway, I hope that I won't be insulted here just because I am Turkish.I actually hope I can contribute to this forum and who knows, I might build some friendship with some people here, and who knows, I might get to meet some people face to face, either in Turkey or in Armenia.Cheers,Bora