Kakomeister

Voter, I have looked around and you seem to be right. People know about 'Paradigmanin iflasi' but they don't have it. But the good news is that he is released from the prison in mid 2002 following the 6th democratization package of the Turkish parliament. It is also interesting to note that none of Turkish prominent pro-Kurdish journalists, including Fikret Baskaya, Zulfu Livaneli, Taner Akcam, and Yasar Kemal are not of Kurdish origin. (Only Yasar Kemal recently claimed that his grandmother was probably Kurdish). Most Kurdish intellectuals, on the other hand, are bought off by Turkey's elites, and do not stand up for the rights of their people. This makes me only proud because it demonstrates the upheaval of peace and democracy in Turkey. To the disappointment of many Armenians, (I don't know if you are included), Turkey is making good progress toward democratization, and it is even mentioned in Human Rights Watch and other int'l organizations as the most progressive country in democratization. I take their word because only few years ago H.R Watch and Amnesty had the most negative and critical comments about Turkey, so they were never ever pro-Turkish in their attitude. Obviously, and unfortunately, Turkey is still behind EU and North America in terms of democratic and civil rights. But the Turkish progress, especially after the capture of the PKK leader Ocalan is admirable. Even the Greek Presidency of the European Union publicly praised Turkey for such a rapid improvement. About Ataturk, the majority of Turks and myself owe him gratitude and allegiance. He certainly had his mistakes, especially from a 2003 perspective looking back to 1920s -1930s. Our task is now to correct his mistakes without abandoning his principals. Without the westernization & modernization he realized, Turkey would probably still be executing journalists and dissidents like in Iran & Saudi Arabia.

Voter, I am not very optimistic either, but I share your hope that someday, somewhere, some compromise will be found between Turkey and Armenia. For some time, probably the relations will be just business based, and maybe later people come closer also in their hearts. About Jewish - Turkish - Armenian issues, I read something which literally shocked me. The article, (it must be in NY times, Washington Post, IHT, it doesn't matter, they are all owned by the same Anglo - Jewish cartel), it wrote about Turkish diplomats assasinated by ASALA militants between 1970s and 1980s. Its translation also appeared in several Turkish newspapers, also in some Turkish internet forums. The article said that all 16 diplomats killed by ASALA were all Jewish by origin. And several ASALA killers which were caught and prisoned (including Yanikian who killed the Turkish consul in Los Angeles), agreed with this theory. Supposedly, Yanikian said something like "I would never risk killing Turks, who might be Armenian friendly, or even Armenian in origin. I killed because I knew this diplomat was Jewish, and we knew he was the enemy of the Armenians". I don't know how much of this is true, but it is an interesting theory. Of course, no excuse justifies the killing of our diplomats, but because nothing can bring them back now, their deaths may open new truths which nobody knows.

Voter, the Sevres Treaty was signed in 1920 ( I think it was August 1920) by the Sultan, and the Ankara Treaty was signed between Ataturk's government and France in March 1921. This means, according to the international law, that Ottoman empire was legitimate in 1920, but obviously not in 1921 - otherwise the French would sign the Treaty with the Sultan. So probably, during the 6-7 months between August 1920 and March 1921, nobody really knew who the legitimate government of Turkey was. Anyways, I will soon try to find and put here links about the Treaty of Ankara (signed between Ataturk's interim government and France in 1921), and the Treaty of Lausanne (signed between the independent Turkish republic and Greece, France, Britain, Italy and other Allied powers in 1923). Both of them specifically mention the Treaty of Sevres, and declare it null and void. It is obviously not Turkey's fault, that in 1920 Armenia's independence was violated by Soviet Russia and Armenia was not given the chance to accept or refuse the Treaty of Lausanne. ( On the other hand, I totally agree with you that if I were a patriotic Armenian, I would never sign the Treaty of Lausanne, and give up the Treaty of Sevres) The same is true for Aleksandropol / Gyumri Treaty (1921), which replaces and supersedes the Sevres Treaty ( but you don't accept that). However, your argument about the Treaty of Aleksandropol / Gyumri does not make a sense from a logical point of view. You say that the Dashnak party was declared illegitimate by the Soviet Russia. Does it seem reasonable to you, that the Soviet Russia, with all her power to conquer entire Caucasus, and run a country from Ural Mountains to Pacific Ocean, will let an 'illegal' Armenian party to sign a treaty in the name of all Armenia, especially when several divisions of the Red Army was occupying Yeravan and other cities? Even if we assume for one moment that Dashnak party managed to sign the treaty secretly with Turkey, would the Soviet Union not cancel it the moment they find out about it? If such a thing had happened, Soviets would do reverse this treaty (also don't forget that Russia was always militarily more powerful than Turkey since 1700s), and make sure that 'legitimate' parties of the Armenian S.S.R sign a new treaty with Turkey. I am not an expert of international law, but I studied enough of it to obtain my undergraduate degree in international relations. According to the international law, all international treaties are valid even if new countries emerge out of the two contracting countries. For example, When Yugoslavia was seperated, Serbia did not challenge its border with Hungary, and Macedonia did not challenge its borders with Albania. This is BECAUSE their independece did not mean that the treaties signed by their previous rulers would be invalid. And I repeat, it is not Turkey's fault if Russians, or treachourous Armenians signed a Treaty with Turkey which did not represent Armenia's best interests. I never denied that part of Armenia's suffering is because of the actions of Ottoman Empire, but you seem to forget that part of the blame is with occupying Soviet Russia and treacherous Armenians who sold out their country. Our last Sultan, Vahdettin, who also sold out our country and signed the Treaty of Sevres. When Turkey gained its independence, he was eventually exiled and did like an honourless dog in Malta. And Ataturk (I don't care whether he was originally Jewish, German, Armenian or Ethiopian) made sure that nobody could enforce Sultan's treachery on the Turkish nation. (About Jewish influence in Turkey and Turkish governments, I repeat my suggestion to discuss it in a seperate topic). Take care.

Voter, read what I wrote carefully. I did not comment that Sevres Treaty was valid or invalid. I only said that IF Sevres Treaty can be considered illegitimate, THEN Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty can also be considered illegitimate. (given the same circumstances, occupation by foreign forces etc...). Or, IF the Sevres Treaty is valid, THEN Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty is ALSO valid. After all, Sevres Treaty was signed by Ottomans ( if we don't give a damn if they were forced to sign it or not), and Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty was signed by Armenian S.S.R (if we don't give a damn about if they were forced to sign it or not). So if you insist that much that the Sevres Treaty (1920) is legitimate, then is also Aleksandropol Treaty (1921), which overrules & superseded the provisions of the Sevres treaty. I only wanted to point, and I repeat, that it is bullshit to claim that Sevres Treaty is valid, and the Aleksandropol Treaty is not. I have respect if you say that both of them are crab, or both of them are ok, simply because both of them are so similar in their circumstances. I respect your intelligence and don't take you for a fool, so please don't try to take me for a fool either. About the discussion regarding Turkish governments, including that of Tayyip Erdogan, I agree with you in some points, but this is also off topic. If you want, we can discuss it in a seperate topic.I hope we understand eachother, even if we don't agree with eachother

Takvor, By the time the Sevres treaty signed in 1920, the Ottoman Empire was under British/ French occupation, and Sultan Vahdettin was a puppet of these occupying forces. The Ottoman signatories of the Sevres treaty, by the same token, were also puppets of British/French. These Ottoman Turks were forced to sign the treaty even though it was contrary to Ottoman interests. For you, this treaty is legitimate. By the time the Aleksandropol/Gyumri Treaty was signed in 1921, Armenia was occupied by Russians, and the Armenian S.S.R was a puppet of the Soviet Russia. The Armenian signatories of the Alexandropol/Gyumri Treaty, by the same token, were puppets of the Soviet Russia. These Armenians were forced to sign the treaty, even though it was contrary to Armenian interests. For you, this treaty is NOT legitimate. The word 'Consistency' is surely not part of your vocabulary. But if you still want to 'enforce' the Sevres, you are welcome to gather your people and try to enforce it. After all, an honorable enemy is worthier than an honorless friend.

Here is the link to the Gyumri (Alexandropol) Treaty http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/ef/04.fr.htm And this is the link to Kars Treaty, signed in 1921. http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/ef/08.fr.htm Both texts are from the Turkish Foreign Ministry's webpages (homepage: www.mfa.gov.tr ), and available only in Turkish and French (the links are to the French versions). Probably you can retrieve Russian versions from Russian Foreign Ministry webpages. In both of the Treaties, there are signatures of Armenian representatives. Whether these Armenians were Russia's puppets / traitors, is an issue which should be solved between Russia and Armenia.

Voter, you are right, I did include the incomplete web link, plus, it was not at Greek mfa, it was at Greek hri; namely www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/ or, you can find similar entries at www.bartleby.com/65/la/LausanneTr.html I imagine you can guess what I did to retrieve this; I typed 'Lausanne Treaty' in Yahoo, and opened one of the links, you probably did the same.About Armenia - Turkey, you know that Russia (turning into Soviet Union in 1917) quit war in the same year, and returned Kars, Ardahan, and Batumi to Turkey even though they were under Russian control in 1917. Couple of years later (probably between 1921-1923), Turkey returned Batumi to Russia as a reciprocal goodwill (this must be the Treaty of Gyumri, but I am not sure, I will find out). Obviously, the treaty of Gyumri was after 1920, when Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia was occupied & annexed by the Red Army. As a logical result, that treaty was signed by Turkey and Soviet Union, and Armenia (this time not because of Turkish fault), did not have any say because it was part of Soviet Russia. Because of all this, I don't understand why you keep asking me about any treaty between Armenia and Turkey. If anything exists, it would be after 1991, when Armenia gained its independence. If you are curious about treaties between Turkey and Russia, I am sure you guys can do a better job since I don't speak Armenian, neither Russian.

BELOW IS EXCERPTS FROM THE TREATY OF LAUSANNE WHICH OVERRULED AND SUPERSEDED THE TREATY OF SEVRES. YOU CAN FIND THE REST OF THE TEXT AT GREEK FOREIGN MINISTRY'S WEBPAGE @ www.mfa.gr TREATY OF LAUSANNE (24 July 1923)THE LAUSANNE CONFERENCE, which convened in order to revise the Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920), had been provided for in the Armistice of Mudania (11 October 1922). It lasted from 20 November 1922 to 24 July 1923, with a short break of two and a half months from February to April.Representatives of eight countries took part in the proceedings: Great Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Roumania, Serbia, Greece and Turkey. The United States also participated, as an observer.The British, French and Italian delegations were headed by their Foreign Ministers,1 while the delegations of Turkey and Greece were headed by Ismet Pasha2 and El. Venizelos respectively.3The Prime Ministers of France and Italy, Poincaré and Mussolini, attended the opening session of the conference, at the Casino Mont Benon in Lausanne. English, French and Italian were designated as the official languages for the remainder of the conference, held in the Hôtel du Chateau, Lausanne.In its final form, the Treaty of Lausanne consisted of 143 articles. Three conventions4 and two protocols were signed along with it. Although, in its final article, the Treaty laid down that its ratification was to begin as soon as possible, in practice this did not prove feasible until August 1924.The Treaty of Lausanne ceded to Turkey all the territory held by Greece in Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace5 (with Karagatch and the Arda-Evros triangle,6 Imbros, Tenedos and the Rabbit Islands, while sovereignty over the remaining islands of the Eastern Mediterranean passed to Greece,7 as specified in article 12. Finally, all Turkish titles and rights to the Dodecanese were transferred to Italy, along with the island of Castellorizo.8 In effect, Greece failed to fulfil the national claims which had been satisfied by the Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920).9 Venizelos, in a lengthy memorandum to the Allies (30 December 1918), had described in detail the distribution of the intrinsically Greek population which resided in areas adjacent to the Greek state.10 However, the Sèvres Peace Treaty was never ratified by the contracting parties, and thus it was never enforced. For Turkey, the Treaty of Sèvres signalled the end of the Ottoman Empire; for Greece, impoverished and without any help from its allies, it left the country exposed to the perils of Kemalist nationalism. As a result, three years later, it lost at Lausanne precisely what it had gained at Sèvres.

Artur, there are two Turkish authors who acknowledged and wrote about Armenian genocide. They are called Asim Tanis and Hakan Ozpinar, both were, as you might guess, not very welcomed in Turkish press! Hakan Ozpinar was never heard about outside Turkey, but Asim Tanis' original work was written as a PhD thesis at a German University, and then translated in Turkish and English. I assume it would be available somewhere in the internet...

Takvor, man, wake up, why would I want to kiss your arrogant as*? -Do you think that I need to be admired by you and your kind who I don't know? NO!-Do I ever expect any benefits or favours from Armenians, in present or in the future? NO!-Do I ever intend to visit Armenia and experience your kind's hate? NO!-Do I work for any Turkish gov't, institution or whatsoever which needs to gain the sympathy of Armenians? NO? My participation is out of simple curiosity about what Armenians feel and think, so I will disappoint you if you look for conspiracy theories, Western phraseology and other nonsense.Artur, I do consider a genocide what happened in Ottoman Turkey between 1915 - 1924. I never denied this since I was 17, and openly told this to everyone I know in Turkey. About how I feel about it, you already know from my previous postings. About other people you claimed that Ottomans killed, my answer is not a simple 'yes' or 'no', I did now know about these 'ubikhs', and will try to read about it. If you have a suggested reading (non-Armenian and non-Turkish sources please!), let me know.But, during my time in this forum, I realized that this 'recognition' you so much desire, is only a first step for you. Takvor was very honest in this aspect, and said that reparation(2) and restoration(3) are the following demands. So imagine, one day you have the military power to occupy Eastern Turkey. What are you going to do, kill and expel millions of Turks who had settled there and make space for Armenians? If we reject restoration (3), but accept reparation (2), in what form should that be?And what about American Indians, should they start to kill all white Americans when one day they have enough military power? What about Israel which killed and expelled millions of Palestinians just because their ancestors lived in that land 2000 years ago? Does history justify Israel's current occupation of West Bank and Gaza ( I remind you that the majority in these territories are still Arab, not Jewish) Man, I did my best to answer your questions as sincerely as possible, it is your turn to answer mine now.

Takvor,I don't give a damn if murderers, rapists, occupying forces, or perverts get hurt or killed, regardless of their nationality.I would be really sorry if innocent people, especially women, children are tortured, raped, or killed, be they Turkish, Russian, Armenian, Azerbaijani, Mexican, Martian, etc... The life of an innocent and well-meaning Armenian is more important and precious to me than the life of a Turkish murderer. Obviously for you, the same is not true. An Armenian murderer, especially if his victim is Turkish, must be your hero.

I am very sorry, but it is impossible to piss me off by insulting islam, christianity, or any other religion, because I am not religious, although I believe in God. Someone wrote that Pakis, Arabs and other Moslems don't like Turks, and that is also very true. But do you think that Georgians, Maronites, and Greeks (in other words, your fellow Christians) like Armenians. The answer is a big NO, I know this from personal experience, also from several forums and email exchanges between Armenians and your fellow Christians. And the reason? Because all nations of the Middle East, Caucasus and Balkans, including Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, Jews, Serbians, etc. have an intense and pathetic ego problem. All of these nations define their national characteristics as being superior from the neighbouring nations. Superior my ass! If all of these Middle Eastern, Balkan and Caucasion nations are superior, why is the Western Europe, united and strong, growing more and more prosperous while our region is an eternal shithole? I can feel that some of you will blame Ottomans for all the wars, probably for the earthquakes and Halley comet, but I cannot help you since I am not a shrink. France and Germany, which were at each other's throats from 1871 until 1945, are now the catalysts of the United Europe. What about Armenians vs. Azeris vs. Greeks vs. Turks vs. Albanians vs. Serbians vs. Croats? Still ready to find the best opportunity to attack eachother and drink the other's blood. So much from your 'lying', 'asshole', 'animal' Turkish 'opponent'. Please continue to think that you are the perfect, most deserving, and purest nation, and go on to hate all the Turks more intensely than ever. My respect and apologis go out to candid and artur, who seem reasonable and willing to show some effort to understand the other side's position. To those of you who keep waiting for the day when you will be stronger than Turkey and will be able to drink as much Turkish blood as you can, all will respond with a Turkish proverb: "Itin duasi kabul olsa gokten kemik yagar" i.e 'if dogs' prayers were answered by God, bones would rain from the sky". God bless you all.

дитя арарата, You should definitely have you brain checked, in case there is anything left in it, chances are you have a mental disorder. First, you want to have a response from me, and request our caveman Takvor not to insult me. Then you change your mind, call me an asshole & animal, then change your mind again, read my apology, try to be a nice guy again. Come on, man, now I will have to return to you your ugly insults and what, are we going to involve in a cyber piss-fight? But I'am not going to be asshole because you called me one, neither you will be an asshole because I called you one. Grow up, get mature, and seek professional help. Artur, Our intelligent friend Takvor was insulting the Turkish democracy, I just wanted to make a point by mentioning the raid of the Armenian parliament. I only wanted to show that the Turkish democracy, despite its corruptness and shortcomings, is functioning better than the Armenian one. You are certainly right about mentioning the massacres of Sumgait and Baku, and those those Azeris committed them should go to jail in this life and to hell in the afterlife. This, however, cannot be an excuse for executing women and children in Karabagh, the news of which I did not read in the Turkish media, but in British Observer, and Washington Post. Even German 'der Spiegel', which is the most anti-Turkish publication you can ever find in Germany, called the Armenian actions barbarian, brutal, and shameful. About the populations in Ani and Artvin, I found out that you were right that the Turks were not a majority. I assume that the majority was Armenian in Ani, and Georgian in Artvin ( Even today a significant part of Artvin's population is Georgian). Or maybe the majority was Armenian in Artvin, but after to WW1, it was As you have witnessed, I have already apologized for the Ottoman attrocities against Armenians between 1915-1924. I furthemore called Abdulhamid II, Talaat and Enver war criminals & animals, and stated my embarassment that they represented my nation & history. None of my great - grandparents participated in this shame, but I still feel sorry for the victims of these bloodthirsty animals. Unfortunately, nobody in this forum, with the possible exception of you, is capable of establishing a civilised dialogue with a Turkish person. As long as your people are unable to deal with conscientious and Armenian-friendly Turks, all you deserve and get will be assholes like Enver, Talat and others, and we will not move one inch forward.

Takvor,I am a Turk who is not afraid of your ignorance, racism, rage, and narrow-mindedness. Nor I am afraid of the Turkish government, its institutions and the dirts of the Ottomans. Since 1980s, Turkey became increasingly democratic, though far from ideal, and young Turks have become more educated, extremely self-critical and questioning. I know this makes you even more jealous, because you are not used to this free exchange of ideas. Your are rather used to raid your own parliament and machine gun your own ministers and MPs. What a tradition of democracy you have in Armenia!I did not write bullshit or propaganda, I only wrote facts. It is a sign of your shortcoming and absence of IQ, if you call these facts lies without disproving them. And I am speaking only for myself, I don't claim to represent all Turks, so you don't have a right to speak for all Armenians.Your brothers who kill their own parliamentarians or Azerbaijani children may agree with you, but not the entire Armenian nation.