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#1 klara

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Posted 12 March 2002 - 03:57 AM

Lav, sxal ei haskatsel qez :)

#2 Меркурий

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Posted 22 March 2002 - 04:10 PM

ocherednoy spor, kotoromu ne budet konca,,,that's why I am not going to argue...

Я не спорю, это мне некчему!У констатирую лишь факт!
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#3 klara

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Posted 07 March 2002 - 01:59 AM

Barev HayMan, Es aprum em Montreal ev arden 10 tari e. Erbek chem veradartsel Hayastan ev hima chgitem inchpes e kyanqy ajntegh. Iharke kan nuynpes shat banner vor moratsel em ev shat banner hishum em.  Bayts hishatakners el shat erexakan en, ev kyanqn el poxvats e ajntegh. Ev yes kartses te im mot miyayn ajd hin hishataknern ev patkernern en  mnatsel ev chgitem te hima inchpe e ev teyevs karotel em Hayastany chgitem, ev chem el kartsum vor karogh em ajntegh aprel norits.

#4 Меркурий

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 01:29 AM

Mercuri, in what way an Armenian will always stay an Armenian ?

En depqum, erb mardkanc mot huisy veradarna.Huisy ain bani, vor amen inch lav klini tekuz ev hima djvar e!Ete mardik huis unenan kveradarnan gnacoxner el chen lini.I mijiailoc uraxali norutiun unem."Lincy" himnadrami hatkacrac poxerov sksvele lainacaval shinararutiun.Verakangnelu en mot 20 tangaranner u tatronner. Hima arden ashxatanqnery sksvel en.Ev ydhanrapes Yerevany dardzel e mec shinararakan hraparak!Shutov lusankarnery klinen cuic ktam! :)
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#5 Меркурий

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Posted 08 April 2002 - 01:51 AM

Ребят поясните! О чем речь?Да и с поста Канана нечего не понял. Или забыл английский или он не хорошо знает его! :confused:
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#6 USA-Defender

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Posted 08 March 2002 - 03:41 AM

klara S prazdnikom! Chto podelat' :) uj koli nachyli ......:) Udachi ! Schyst'y!

#7 klara

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 04:04 AM

Mercuri, Iskapes chem patkeratsnum inchpes e hima ajdtegh poxvats, shat lav klini ete lusankarnery tsuyts tas :)Yes inqs Erevanits chem, Kirovakanits em, Vanadzor hima. Eravan hishum em shat shat taq er Kirovakani hamamat.

#8 klara

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Posted 07 March 2002 - 12:02 AM

I live in Canada since the age of 12. What I find great here is that it is a very multicultural country. At least in big cities, like Toronto or Montreal and so on. And people are kind to each other. Here your neighbours are Greeks, Africans, Spanish, French, etc, etc… And you walk on the street and hear languages and see people from all around the world. Of course culturally the Armenian community is somewhat different from the Armenians who live in Russia or Armenia. Many Armenians here are not only from Armenia but from Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, etc, etc, etc, They have a different culture, more oriental.  Many times if not very often they dance under Arabic music, speak Arabic among themselves and have different mentality. I am not saying it is bad, but it is not the culture I knew in Armenia.And hearing Arabic or dancing under that music  does not stir my heart, it does nothing to me.  To me it is foreign. And the things that are most familiar to me, that I miss the most are things that were of course Armenian but a bit of Russian like the songs, the films, etc… I miss hearing the Armenian language that Eastern Armenian that we speak. And that Armenian culture from Armenia here is not very apparent, it is more that Western Armenian mentality that people live with. And then people change, the ones who came from Armenia change and they  lose that flame or what ever it was that was so typically theirs. Maybe in USA it is less like that because there are more Armenians there than in Canada I don’t know.Assimilation:A bit of assimilation is inevitable.  You have to be a little mellow to fit in.  But at the same time it is very important to not forget who you are, where you come from. Even if the country of  your adoption is the greatest,  and  it’s people the most kind you always in some ways feel a stranger. And hearing a little sound of  duduk is sometimes so pleasant so kind and uplifting and you know that it is yours. And talking people about who you are about your culture is important, they like hearing who you are where you are coming from and they acknowledge  it.Of course, I should add that maybe if I lived in Armenia all my life, I would not know what is that feeling of yearning or missing your homeland. You sometimes feel that if you go somewhere you will only miss your family members but most often you miss the little things like when you would sit on a bench with all your neighbours and talk, or the smell of a fruits, or the noise of children screaming and playing outside, etc, etc, etc.

#9 klara

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 03:40 AM

Mercuri, in what way an Armenian will always stay an Armenian ?

#10 Меркурий

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 02:24 AM

Кен джан.Турки это отдельный вопрос.Про арабскую кухню-Как известно мы долгое время жили под владычеством арабов. И теперь много армян живут в арабских госс.-ах. По этому нет нечего удевительного, чтоесть очень много общих блюд(арабских на армянский лад, армянских на арабский лад).По праздников-По моему ты лукавиш сказав, что армяне присвоили праздники арабов и говорят, что это армянские праздники. Может быть они празднуют их. Это вплоне нормально!Кстати Седа нечего этого не говорила! :D Потом! Да турки :D Какие блюда у турок, музика, танцы? :D  :D  :D Они все взяли или у армян, или у греков, или у арабов, персов, ассирыйцев и тд. Так что что такое туркская культура это большой вопрос.В Азтопе открыл даже такую тему.Некто не смог ответить на вопрос.- Что дали турки миру!
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#11 Меркурий

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Posted 22 March 2002 - 04:15 PM

ocherednoy spor, kotoromu ne budet konca,,,that's why I am not going to argue...

Я не спорю, это мне некчему!У констатирую лишь факт!
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#12 HayMan

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Posted 07 March 2002 - 01:24 AM

Klara I also live in Canada!Du vor caxacum u vor provincum es aprum?Es Toronto um em aprum, Hayastanic ekel em 2 tari arag. Shat karotum em Erevan@ u im @nkerneris.

#13 Forum

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Posted 20 March 2002 - 04:26 AM

A lot of facts have contributed to this fact Kana. Especially the closeness of the communist regime during the Soviet Empire. The developments of the diaspora-Armenia literature was different. However you should not worry about it that much because with the collapse of the Soviet Empire the interaction between diaspora and Armenia is on a much different level, with our singers, dancers, painters, musicians etc. travelling to Spiurk(diaspora) communities quite often.  :) . We now also have satellite televisions broadcasting across the globe  so that all the Armenians who had little chance to get aquainted with Armenian traditions can do so now.

#14 Vaspur

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Posted 07 April 2002 - 10:56 PM

Jeldash,inglizcha bilmi jorum, ruscha konush plz.

#15 USA-Defender

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Posted 06 March 2002 - 03:13 AM

BESEDKA! OBSHYITES' , OBMENIVAITES' MNENIYMI, ZDES' MOJNO O BO VSEM I VSE ! ZA ISKLUCHENIEM MATA.

#16 Меркурий

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Posted 12 March 2002 - 03:49 AM

Inch asem Mercuri, chem asum mnal ir erkrum anham e bayts tesnel urish erkrnel, ev aprel mi qich ajntegh aveli harustatsnum e. Erkrord, es erevi iravunq chunem hayastan gal ev aprel ajlevs vorovhetev toghetsi erkiry ir amena djvar jamanaknerin erevi ajd es uzum alsel ? Hmm… karogh e vor tchisht es, chgitem. Iharke shat kuzei gal ev iskapes hayastany tesnel, vorovhetev erbeq chem hayastany lav tchanatchel. Chem "voyage" arel Hayastanum.Chnayats te, ajsteqh el e djvar, inchu vor shat jamanak mardik menak en, harevanit   het tariner es aprum, ev annuny chgites voch el barev es talis,  ev ajls… Iharke, tsnoghneri hamar aveli djvar e, menq karoghatsanq aveli shut harmarvel. Im djvarutjuns ajn e vor es hajeri meg shat chshpvetsi, ev hima aveli djvarutyun em unenum mtenel ajd shrganaky. Ev apsosum em, vorovhetev shat ban moratsa, franceren, anglerens sovorelits heto , ruserens moratsa, ajsinqn petq e vor shat xosem, practice anem, ahhh… chgitem….. Hima, hajastany im tsnvats erkirn er ev Canadan el im erkirs e inch vor chapov, chgitem te inchqan e arjeqy im srtum, inchpes vor chgiteyi te inch er Hajastani arjeqy, minchev vor gnatsi ajnteghits. Hima gone, harmaravem ajstegh, patkanam mi inch vor erkri, vorovhetev, ajspes bohemi pes lav che khanqy.

Es aidpisi ban chaseci, vor du iravunk chunes aprelu Hayastanum.Astco Siru ekek aprek.Hayastany bolor hayeri erkirn e. Im asacay urish ban er.Im asacy na e vor petq che xusapel djvarutiunneric.Ev yndhanrapes shutov erkkaxakaciutian orenk en mtcnelu, aynpes vor bolor ain hayery ovker kuzenan Hayastani kaxakaci linel, karox en da anel.Im erazanky na e vor gone hayeri mecamasnutiuny veradarnan Hayastan. Indz tvum e es voch mi voravorakan ban chem asel! :(
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#17 klara

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Posted 12 March 2002 - 03:34 AM

Inch asem Mercuri, chem asum mnal ir erkrum anham e bayts tesnel urish erkrnel, ev aprel mi qich ajntegh aveli harustatsnum e. Erkrord, es erevi iravunq chunem hayastan gal ev aprel ajlevs vorovhetev toghetsi erkiry ir amena djvar jamanaknerin erevi ajd es uzum alsel ? Hmm… karogh e vor tchisht es, chgitem. Iharke shat kuzei gal ev iskapes hayastany tesnel, vorovhetev erbeq chem hayastany lav tchanatchel. Chem "voyage" arel Hayastanum.Chnayats te, ajsteqh el e djvar, inchu vor shat jamanak mardik menak en, harevanit   het tariner es aprum, ev annuny chgites voch el barev es talis,  ev ajls… Iharke, tsnoghneri hamar aveli djvar e, menq karoghatsanq aveli shut harmarvel. Im djvarutjuns ajn e vor es hajeri meg shat chshpvetsi, ev hima aveli djvarutyun em unenum mtenel ajd shrganaky. Ev apsosum em, vorovhetev shat ban moratsa, franceren, anglerens sovorelits heto , ruserens moratsa, ajsinqn petq e vor shat xosem, practice anem, ahhh… chgitem….. Hima, hajastany im tsnvats erkirn er ev Canadan el im erkirs e inch vor chapov, chgitem te inchqan e arjeqy im srtum, inchpes vor chgiteyi te inch er Hajastani arjeqy, minchev vor gnatsi ajnteghits. Hima gone, harmaravem ajstegh, patkanam mi inch vor erkri, vorovhetev, ajspes bohemi pes lav che khanqy.

#18 kanan-fsa7

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 01:32 AM

Mercury,You said that those Armenians, who live abroad, have to balance their traditions with the nation that they reside with. That makes sense, can't ignore that thought, however... What about those Armenians who I personally know, or have sometime met which consider the traditions of the local area their own. Like Klara pointed out that those Armenians who come from Lebanon or Turkey think of Arabian and Turkish tradition as their own. When I say tradition I mean national music, art, holidays, food.By the way "the food"... Once I was chatting with an armenian in Philadelphia. After huge amount of time that we spent debating about the common "don't touch or I'll get mad" point - Karabakh, I asked him to take me to some Armenian food place in Philadelphia. We settled time and went to place called "Armenian Delight" in Media, PA. I was very excited to discover Armenian food for myself, but I ended up eating "de-formatted" Arabian platter. He ordered some rise and meet which I also can get at my university campus place called "Ali's Middle Eastern". Now when you ask an Armenian in Turkey about their food, I am absolutely sure he will bring up some "De-formatted" Turkish food.As you come closer to Caucasus Armenians there national food which appears to be tolma, bozbash, kufte and etc. All which somehow can be found in Baku restaurants. I am not gonna make conclusion I hope my point is clear. But I want you to answer to my question, if you don't mind. These can be two explanations, either Armenian taught Turkey, Lebanon and Azerbaijan how to cook, that's why the food is so similar, OR Armenians just adopted the food of these nations and claim those their own. SO which answer you think is right???Regards. Ken. PS: Levon by the way by the dinner table admitted that Armenian food is similar to Lebanese. :0  :0  :0  what a surprise????

#19 Edita

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Posted 12 April 2002 - 01:57 AM

Hi,guys:) I'm studiing in U.S right now but i am coming home(Armenia) on May 15th(some of you know,some of you don't).I am so happy:). Shat hrashali jamanak antskatsretsi U.S-um,bayts Hayastanits lav@ chka.Yes uxaki hamozvetsi,vor es mets ashxarhum Hayastann a miak tuns-texs` inchqan el uzum a djvar lini 'ndex aprel@. Hents hasam Hayastan,arajin ban@,vor 'nkerneris aselu em,klini,erbeq mi erazeq urish tex aprel,esa mer tex@.......Miayn 8 amis a,vor U.S em,bayts enqan em karotel mer amen inch@,kartses` mi qani tari araj em ekel stex:))))))

#20 Vaspur

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Posted 08 April 2002 - 05:11 AM

Vikont-jan, Almanya dan...,tak  ponaxvatalsja ot "mestnix",no ponimat konechno zatrudnjajus.

#21 Меркурий

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Posted 09 March 2002 - 12:34 AM

МеркурийDa, na zaglavie smotrel, daje sam ego napisal, no Vi navernoe pravi :"люди где могут там и дисскусируют" :)

Желаю приятного общения! :)
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#22 Vaspur

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Posted 08 April 2002 - 05:11 AM

Vikont-jan, Almanya dan...,tak  ponaxvatalsja ot "mestnix",no ponimat konechno zatrudnjajus. :confused:

#23 Меркурий

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Posted 12 March 2002 - 04:07 AM

Lav, sxal ei haskatsel qez :)

:)
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#24 Меркурий

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Posted 08 March 2002 - 01:29 AM

Ayo, tchist es. Iharke vor poqr jamanak es galis, aveli shut es ambrnum mtatselakerpy ev inchpes asem, kazmavorvum es ajd erkrum. Erb ekanq menq aystegh, ev vor lezu einq sovorum, russneri het einq. Heto dprotsy poxeluts heto, menq el heratsanq. Heto, Ruserens moratsa. Ajsinqn haskanum em vor kardum em, kam lsum em bajts, hoselits xarnvum em kardtses te barery beranits durs chen galis, barers em pntrum. Hima, Hay ynkerner chunem, ev menq el ajnqan haykakan shrgapatin motik chenq ajster.  Hima erku franciatsi ynkerner unem. Djvar e erkir pohely, bajts te gites achqert e batsum. Hima du aveli hetaqrqir antsial unes qan te meky qo tariqin vor ambortch kjanqy nujn qaxaqum e aprel. Hima du mi qani lezu es hosum, qante meky ajstexi vor mi lezu giti. Aravelutyun e ajd. Iharke hayastany 3rd world che, ev petk e  lavana vichaky, bajts es erb asum em vor maybe te mtatselakerpov  chem karogh ajnter aprel ?  Chgitem…

Kneres bayc es kez het chem hamadzaynvi.Es amboghj kyanks Yerevanum em aprel.Ev unecel em shat hetakrkir kyanq hima el e shat hetakrkir.Isk djavurutiunnery nra hamar en, vor drank haghtahares, voch te khusapes, ases erb vor lav lini et jamanak kmtacenk ganq te che:-(Isk inch verabervum e lezunerin havata indz aystegh du shat lav uzact lezun ksovores.Es avartel em 139 angliakan tekumov, dprocy.Gitem angleren, ruseren.Anglerens chishte mi kich moracel em, bayc mi 2 amsva verhishelu ban e.Es mtadir em asytegh aprel, aystegh inch vor ban steghcel. Gitem vor shat djvar e linelu, bayc yes indz aranc Hayastani chem patkeracnum.Aranc Hayastani, aranc Yerevani es voch mi ban em.Eghel e mi kani shabatov Hayastanum chem eghel. Ayd jamanak vonc vor ods herik chani.Indz tvum e vor bolory petq e veradarnan, gone verjin 10 tarineri ytackum gnacacnery.
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#25 Forum

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 02:40 AM

kanan-fsa7. You have to admit that we all live in a region (if not geographically at least culturally) called the Middle East. The culture (especially food, music, traditional family.) have been in close contact with each other throughout centuries. The reason we eat boz-bash is the same reason you eat lavash or khash. By the way the Georgian dishes such as khachapuri, xinkali etc. are also popular in Armenia. It is a natural thing. It means that neighbours do appreciate each others culture. If we look at the what British people eat it would surprise us. The most popular food is Indian (tandoori, balti...) and Oriental (cantonese, thai,japanese...).

#26 Vaspur

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Posted 08 April 2002 - 05:20 AM

From Biblical point of view Muslim are going to ####, and whole Islam is nothing but a "barbarian-collection-of-stories"...

NOU  "Muslim"--turks

#27 Меркурий

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Posted 08 March 2002 - 05:07 AM

Rebyta! zdes' razdel MEMUAROV :)Diskursii i znakomstva v drugix razdelax:)Rasskazivaite o sebe o jizne okrujaushei Vas, nujno dat' vozmojnost' viskazat'sy vsem jelaushim, OBSUJDENIE  viskazannogo , mojet ottolknut' drugix ot jelaniy podelit'sy sokrovennim. Primite mai izvineniy za vtorjenie:)

Спасибо что указал где диссукусировать :D Но я и так знал.Вооще то форум для того чтоб люди где могут там и дисскусируют.Да еще и тема вполне пригодная.(Ты на заглавье темы смотрел?)Так что спасибо конечно за совет, но я думаю обайдемся и без них ;)
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#28 kanan-fsa7

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 01:43 PM

greatings from Philly,Well more I debate about these issues, more it becomes clear to me that it's it pointless. I think I gonna end up banning myself from debates with Armenians about history, culture. It seems to me more valuable to talk about present and future.Let's talk about present and future. That seems more interesting and there are things to discuss. I remember once 2nd democratic president of Azerbaijan Abulfez Elchibey to the question of the journalist which sounded like this "What do you think about the whole Karabakh issue, and Arezbaijani-Armenian relations? ", he answered "I am not going to try to interpret future, but as for now there more things that unite these two countries than separate" ... well Elchibey is gone now... he did what he could and I don't think it was enough...For now until the last "dot" is placed in the fate of Qarabag, he will fight, argue and sometimes kill each other. And I don't think there will be any solution to this problem, unless we start talking nation to nation, not president to president. I regret that I got in to you cultural topic, about Armenian food, music or whatever. If even I wouldn't have any national meal, I would not recognaze it either. SO it's pointless. History is done, the most we can do about it is remeber and be proud. What about present??? or future??? Will We Ever Be Able To Live Like Neighbors Again???Regards,PS: To Klara" Well I am from a city called Mingechaur, in Azerbaijan. I was born there, currently I am in US studing.

#29 kanan-fsa7

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Posted 07 April 2002 - 08:29 PM

Great Commission Illustrated Books (GCI) is dedicated to publishing quality information, books, photo albums, and Internet links about the Bible, Jesus Christ, and great friendships and relationships in the church and to all people. From Biblical point of view Muslim are going to ####, and whole Islam is nothing but a "barbarian-collection-of-stories"...

#30 ANNITA

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Posted 06 March 2002 - 12:57 PM

Nu chto j, kajetsya ya nachnu pervoi...I tak, jivu ya v Mosckve, pereekhala v 93 godu v vozraste 13 let. V to vremya navernoe bil samii bol`shoi potok armyan iz strani. Nu moya sem`ya ne stala isklyucheniem. Chestno govorya ya po yunnosti let ochen` khotela v Moskvu. Mne kazalos, chto chto tam za gorizontom menya jdet vse novoe i interesnoe. Ya napeeboi rasskazivala v svoei shkole v Erevane kakaya u menya budet shkola v Mosckve. No na samom dele ya prosto ne osoznavala togo, chto uejayu nadolgo, pochti navsegda.V real`noti Mosckva okazalas ne takoi kakoi ya ee zapomnila, kogda bila v detstve. Ya vdrug osoznala, chto takoe natsional`nost i chto lyudi mogut otsenivatsya imenno po etomu priznaku. Edinstvennoe chto bilo khorosho eto to chto postoyanno bil svet :)Pervii "shok". Nu pervii shok ya ispitala v shkole, kogda na vtoroi den` znakomstva moi odnoklassnitsi tak nevznachai sprosili menya ne kuryu li ya. Dalee raspitie moimi odnoklassnikami pivo na zadnei parte vo vremya zanyatii...Prichem eto bila ne prostaya shkola, s uglublennim uzucheniem inostrannikh yazikov, v tsentre goroda. I tak pered mnoi stoyal vibor libo zamknutsya v sebe tak kak ya ne bila prinyata v osnovnuyu tusovku, ili je pokazat` v kontse kontsov who is who!Da, doljna skazat`, chto otdayu dan` armyanskomu vospitaniyu i tomu chto v nas zalojeno uje na geneticheskom urovne. A imenno to chto khotim mi etogo ili net no chtem nashi traditsii i est` gran` kot. mi nikogda ne pereidem.Nu of course ya vibrala vtoroe. Na moi vzglyad mnogie imigranti (terpet` ne mogu eto slovo) ne pravi v tom chto obschayutsya tol`ko so svoimi zemlyakami, ili skajem s drugimi vikhodtsami s Kavkaza. Nujno postaratsya naiti sebya v novoi obstanovke, ne poteryav sebya, svoei natsional`noi prinadlejnosti, no i ne tseplyatsya za proshloe. U menya v shkole bilo ochen` mnogo gruzivov, osobenno iz Kutaisi :), i v pervoe vremya ya nachla bol`she obschatsya s nimi. Oni ne obschalis ni s kem krome svoikh zemlyakov i armyan. T.e. veli obosoblennii obraz jizni. Ya  druzei sredi svoikh odnoklassnikov, ne teryaya svyazi i s "Kavkazskoi diasporoi".U nas v shkole ne smotrya ni na chto nikogda ne bilo deleniya po natsional`nomu priznaku. I so vremenem vokrug menya sobralis lyudi samikh raznikh natsional`nostei. V Institute toje samoe. Ya ne stala ogranichivat` svoye obschenie lish armyanami, a prosto nashla lyudei s kem mne priyatno obschatsya i s kot. u menya sovpadayut tsennosti i vzglyadi.Kakoi ya sovet mogu dat`...derjites svoikh traditsii i nakhodite sebya novom obschestve. S uvajeniem,Anna ;)
Узнать тебя!
Понять тебя!
Обнять тебя любовью,
И воскресенья весть услышать над тобой,
Армения звенящая огнем и кровью,
Армения не побежденная судьбою!

#31 kanan-fsa7

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Posted 19 March 2002 - 08:15 AM

Hi to everyone, especially to Mercury,ok, I read Klara saying how Armenians from turkey, lebanon and some other states are more oriental. The don't seem to be the same as the armenians from Caucasus. Can anyone explain (not copy and paste huge texts) in few word the reason for such a diversity among Armenians from all around the world.Regards.PS: Why turkish peopla who live in US, Lebanon or Germany play and dance national music? Why do the tukr in US and Europe and Asia play their music? But Armenians in Turkey got their different type of armenian songs, in Lebanon other type and in Caucasus another?

#32 Vaspur

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Posted 07 April 2002 - 02:05 PM

Chto-dali armyane miru. Chast otveta na etot vopros mozhno polucit posmotrev:-greatCommission.com   - tam mozhno naiti otvet i na vopros:chto "dali" miru -turki...  Otkroite,a tam sorientiruetes sami.

#33 klara

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Posted 08 March 2002 - 03:22 AM

USA-Defender eto ochen interesniy razdel, intiresnaya tema, :)tolko sechas mogy ya otvetit Merkurii ili delat novuyu temu za etogo ? Nu eto nechego. p.s sorry if we went out of subject... :)

#34 USA-Defender

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Posted 21 March 2002 - 04:05 AM

MerkuriiXoty Vi i otoshli ot temi pomoemu sovershenno i okonchytel'no:) , tem nemenie postaraus' Vam otvetit'.***Некто не смог ответить на вопрос.- Что дали турки миру! *** YTAGAN - da k sojaleniu tol'ko see orudie ubiistva i est' tureckogo izobreteniy, xoty sporit' ne stal bi mojet i ego 'pozaimstvovali' , no xotelos' bi verit' chto ato ix nacional'noe ...tak-kak bolee vsego otvechyet TURECKOMU mentalitetu. Nu a tema k sojaleniu deistvitel'no zagublina, jal'.No obshenie doroje:).

#35 USA-Defender

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Posted 08 March 2002 - 09:40 PM

МеркурийDa, na zaglavie smotrel, daje sam ego napisal, no Vi navernoe pravi :"люди где могут там и дисскусируют" :)




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