What is Kurdistan?

[takvor]

What is Kurdistan?It's pure invention of the Western community. There's never been such country in the history.Meanwhile, Western media are brainwashing there viewers, promoting the Kurd people and their pseudo-democratic Kurdistan.I hope there'll never by ANY Kurdistan with a land w/ oil resources. A land that could be larger than Armenia!?That would be so unfair to Armenians after what we all know about the Kurds participating ACTIVELY in the Armenian 1915 Genocide.When Iraq blows up, and Turks invade Northern Iraq, that may be the Kurds turn. Then, maybe they'll learn the lesson (the hard way) of what it costs to cooperate with the Turkish murders in 1915.What goes around, comes around.

[Artur]

If we look at the map of so-called Kurdistan, we can find there that 90% of their lands lie in Armenian highland. So, i don't and never will recognise country that never existed... moreover kurds did not appear in the history of the land untill the 7th century, so they don't have any rights to claim the lands. Kurds indeed participated in Armenian genocide with once upon a time their friends turks. Now their are enemies... and that is the only thing that we have in common with them...

[Artur]

here it is their wish map:it includes half of the lands that should belong to us!

[kentavr]

Artur,Don't you think that it is becoming a seriuos disease called "land embezzlement mania" that have been developed in kind of people like you, and it will be difficult to cure it in the future, if you don't start to take some measures right now.What is the difference between you and kurds that are claiming the neighboring countries' territories, and willing to create a fairy and non-existent country that they assume they once had?

[Artur]

Let's put this way...Your questions in their sence are incorrect... first of all we should define whom the land belong... It appears you know nothing about history...If we look at the eastern Turkey, Armenian highland lies their (note: it is an internationally recognized term) before 1921 these lands were recognised as lands of Armenian people even though western Armenia was under the rule of Ottoman empire... but that doesn't make any right to take the lands that belong to other nation... right?If we even look more deeper into history, you will find that Ararat region is a historical region of Armenians... that's where we after the collapse of Urartu Kingdom managed to organise two kingdoms of Armenia... Greater Armenia and Lesser Armenia. At that time there were no kurds or turks around and Armenia managed to have their independent state, even though for short period of time, after which we were conquered by Romans. But the lands were in the property of Armenian King(s) From start of 1st century until 20th century, nobody claimed these lands as they were historically Armenian. After the genocide Turks with Russia's help took the lands that never belonged to them.Travel to the estern Turkey and you will see places with thousands of churches and monasteries which were built during the long history of Armenian nation. Even though most of them were brutally destroyed, still they are there.

[Kakomeister]

As a Turkish citizen, I have to admit that I owe all Armenians an apology because of what happened in the past. Regardless of whether we call it deportation (Turkish version) or genocide (Armenian version), lots of civilian Armenians suffered, got deported, or died. To the shame of Ottoman authorithies, the deported Armenians did not have protection on their way to Syria, but it was mostly Kurdish Hamidiye regiments which attacked, looted and killed Armenians. However, many Armenians are so much blinded with anti-Turkish rage that they cannot accept these Kurdish brutalities. Despite the unpleasant past, I don't understand the majority of Armenians that they are still so much full of hatred. For more than 700 years, no sovereign Armenian kingdom existed in today's Turkey, and Armenians still claim that Eastern Anatolia belong to them. Never during the Ottoman period a significant region in Anatolia had and Armenian majority, only few towns, such as Kayseri, Sivas and Antep, had significant Armenian populations, isolated from the rest of Armenia. At any point in time, different territories belonged to different nations. Balkans, for example, were first Greek, then Roman, then Ottoman, and now Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey etc.... When you try to bring Balkans to their original owners, who would you choose? Or would you also recommend returning the U.S to Indians There are today 100,000 - 150,000 Armenians living peacefully in Turkey. But because of the irredentist claims of diaspora Armenians, also Turkish citizens with Armenian background get vulnerable. Many Turks, like myself, are willing to offer Armenians a sincere apology, but your offical position as well as individual feelings (which we can all see on this forum) makes us feel that an apology will not be enough. After official apology, you will probably demand financial compensation, and eventually territorial compensation. Please try to forgive our great grandfathers and you will see that most Turks will respond with a sincere apology. Take care.

[simple]

2 Kakomeister , don't you think that after occupation of 90% of our Matherland and killing about 1.5 millon people just say "im sorry, my apology" its not enougth.Mureder of one man is crime, but what do you going to call a murder of 1.5 mlns??? Its a crime of turkish people against armenians, and nobody, i reapid nobody has been panish yet for that.

[Artur]

Kakomeister, about apology, I respect your move. But even though kurds co-operated with you during the beginning of the 20th century we don’t put accusations against them, thus Turks are the ones responsible for committing the genocide, we know our history better and any kind of speculations we don’t accept. I truly understand you, as your media nowadays kind of recognizing the killings of many Armenians and it is logical to see how they use propaganda to blame kurds and other peoples etc. etc. I don’t blame you. But who knows history better than those who suffered? We know whom to blame and from whom to ask an apology.Next, surely Armenian Kingdom did not have it’s independence and in historical Western Armenia lived many other peoples, but does it make any difference? Caucasus also belongs to Russia and Sochi is a Russian city with majority of Russians living there, but the lands historically belong to Georgians and to other Caucasians. Look at the Eastern Anatolia, it was a region of birth of Armenian people. Ararat was always a symbol of Armenians, Kingdom of Urartu(Ararat) existed long time before Turkic tribes moved to the region. Ani, Van… churches monasteries, cross-stones… In other words historically we have full right to claim these lands. However we are not pushing for it, it is not our policy. What we want is to have a full right to go, see and live in the lands of our forefathers. In order for it to happen Turkish government should recognize the genocide in first place. I am seeing it happening in the future after the world recognizes but not now. When you recognize and officially apologize then even though the genocide is unforgettable for us we could be living and co-operating with each other.Regards,Artur

[takvor]

Some people that are posting in this forum seem not to know (or maybe pretend not to) that the Turkish govt officials like Talaat and others that planned and carried out the Armenian Genocide were put on trial by a Turkish court in 1919 for the above crimes.They were sentenced to death penalties, which were later on never carried out, therefore, we had to do it ourselves (“Nemesis Operation”).Moreover, the notion of “crime against humanity” that is widely used right now throughout the world, appeared and was first used to “specifically describe the crimes against the Armenian people in the Ottoman empire.” That’s the first time this term was used, and it is equivalent to the later term of genocide. So, there’s no doubt about that, in anybody’s mind.Finally, any land on this planet, belongs to whoever takes it. And, there’s no doubt that we’ll take our land back, one way or the other (peacefully through mutual agreement, or by force, when the time is right.) Time is on our side. This may take centuries, but I’m confident that our descendents will in a not-to-far future get the chance to live in the land of Van, Erzerum, Kars, …. We are working on it.

[Kentavr-2]

You guys must know that, the propaganda which you all have been imposed by your politicians and historians will not bring you to the reasonable shore...Just look at your views, in your words one can see the endless hatrid to other people, you ae ready to spill blood in order to please to your bloody wishes, but why?I guess your kidds will blame you for all this, as you are creating hostilitis to other nations that neighboring with you such as Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia, and instead of thinking out positives ways of solution of the issues, and growing economy you are offering to wage war to occupy some more lands, that you are convinced belong to you....

[takvor]

What is Turkey? Just a worm in the fruit.It doesn't belong to Europe (it has problems with ALL of it's Eastern Europe neighbors), and it doesn't belong to Asia either. Even the neighboring muslim countries like Irak, Syria, and Iran, cannot find a way to have freindly relations with Turkey.Why is that? Because, the Turk nomades, are just what they have always been, "nomadic tribes" from the central asian desert. A people, without a culture, that is striving on lootting the lands of other people.They prove the beligerent behavior, right now, as they are readying themselves to conquer Northern Iraq. Peace is just words, in Turkey. The FACTS prove their beliquous minds.to conclude, the entire Turkish land doesn't belong to Turks.And, we'll make sure that the Armenian lands will be restored to their legitimate owners. Artsakh (formerly Karabagh) is just a start.

[kentavr]

Artsakh (formerly Karabagh) is just a start.

Yes, you are right, this is a start of the end for those who occupied Azerbaijani territories, no culprits of those crimes shall live unpanished in the world...

[takvor]

It's very weird this "need" that some people have to come on Armenian forums to spread their filth. It looks like they are "obsessed with us"! Abviously, 87 years after the genocide, they still miss us, or need us to justify their existance on this earth.Turks need an enemy to go forward. To support this fact, as soon as their joining EU was rejected for reasons that are understandable to everyone (Turkey doesn't meet the basic democratic and human right standards, by far), they tried to stir up their public opinion, by putting this failure on a purely religious factor, saying Europe is a Christian circle. Actually, they can only blame it on themselves. But, they are right about one thing. Europe is circle of Christian, civilized nations, that Turkey cannot pretend be a member.Actually, I think Armenia may very well join EU, BEFORE Turkey does. For, WE are both "ethnically and culturally", Europeans.

[Artur]

Yes, you are right, this is a start of the end for those who occupied Azerbaijani territories, no culprits of those crimes shall live unpanished in the world...

FOR REAL :lol:still joking? it's been ten years you've been telling the same joke... please shut your mouses... a man does not talk but does the walk... same picture was in 1988 when you were doing nothing but talking how you would destroy and controll the whole Artsakh... but when the war started the only thing you could do is run...One reporter asked Commandos (Armenian warlord) There were twice as much azeris than armenians and they run, would would have happened if they were three times more of them than you?he answered:- Three times more would have run.

[Kakomeister]

Artur,

I accept your theory/accusation that Turkish mass media and state are trying to brainwash us Turks, and try to make us think that Armenians deserved what had happened to them. Nobody, including myself, is immune to propaganda, brainwashing and hidden manipulation. I hope that you are not going to claim that Armenian national & diaspora media doesn't try to brainwash ordinary Armenians. However, you seem to believe that you know all these things "better", and are probably not inclined to admit your own misjudgments. Well, then let us assume that your version is the correct, and my version is wrong, but let me present you with my "wrongs" anyways.

Until 1880s, Armenians were the favourite subjects of the Ottoman empire. They were called 'sadik millet' (loyal nation), and many foreign ministry jobs were held by Armenians. Even today, you can see the picture of Dikran Boyajian, the Ottoman envoy to Rome, on the reception hall of the Turkish Foreign Ministry Building in Ankara. However, it was Cazarist Russia's policy since early 1800s, to start revolts among Ottoman Empires Orthodox Christian subjects. Greeks, Bulgarians and others allied with Russia easily, but the Armenians were harder to convince. After all, Armenians were the most integrated Christian subjects of the empire, and they enjoyed admiration due to their skills in craftmanship and loyalty. Furthermore, as you also admitted, Armenians formed no majorities in any contiguous region of the empire (with the exception of some cities such as Erzurum, Kayseri where they were the majority), so it was impossible to justify the territorial claims by ethnic reasoning. Therefore, it took Russia almost a century to persuade the majority of Armenians to revolt against the Ottoman empire. When they revolted, however, it was especially bloody, since almost each and every village/town in Eastern Anatolia had a significant number of both Turks and Armenians willing to slaughter each other.

It was also unfortunate that during the initial phase of the revolt was during the reign of Abdulhamid II (1876-1909), who was rather a paranoid and cruel animal than a human being. I hope that he and his hitmen burn forever in hell for what they have inflicted on Armenians as well as on Turks. His successor Mehmed V (1909-1918) was another impotent creature, who had no scruples about sending 100,000 Ottoman troops to Caucasus winter without proper clothing and weaponry. Eventually, 90,000 of these soldiers lost their lives, the majority of them not because of Russian bullets but simply by freezing to death. But of course you and many Armenians are thought to think that the killings of Armenians were carefully designed and carried out by Ottoman authorities. If a loser gov't like the Ottomans cannot feed and cloth its own soldiers, how can they plan and carry out such a big scale slaughter? I don't expect to agree with me, but please ask this question sincerely to yourself.

My grandfathers came from Saloniki and Creta, which both belong to Greece today. Instead of dreaming about reconquering these territories and causing further bloodshed, I prefer to visit these places and try to get to know Greeks whose grandparents might have known my grandparents. Regardless of to whom Saloniki and Creta actually belongs, it is a fact that today both are largely populated by Greeks, and belong to Greece. I hope that you can make a similar analogy for today's Eastern Turkey as well as the Azerbaijani territories occupied by Armenia.

Regards.

[takvor]

Unforunately, Turkey missed the chance during the past 87 years of lies and negationism, to come out as a great nation, facing the hard truth about its darkest hours. Instead of having the courage of aopologizing, and asking for forgiveness, thereby opening for reconcialiation, it is getting deeper in lies, as time goes.

Now, we have no other choice, than taking care of the problem ourselves. Just like we did with Talaat and Enver.

Your goverments blew it! You can only blame yourselves.

[Kakomeister]

When you are presented with facts about Turkish - Armenian dispute, it is sad that no Armenian is in a position to challenge my statements. If the facts & theories I presented are in any way false or incomplete, why does nobody correct / challenge me?

Artur was kind enough to respond to my first input, but did not bother to respond to my second post. (Sorry Takvor that I cannot include your stupid nonsense as a challenge!)

I guess this is also partly the mistake of us Turks; because some of my countrymen deny the cruelties inflicted upon Armenians, you guys are used to deal with these negationists. But imagine for one second that you are important gov't members dealing with well-meaning Turks, so what would you say to someone like me who wants to open a structured dialogue?

Probably NOTHING because you are all raised, educated and brainwashed to hate all Turks regardless of what they do and what they think. Isn't takvor a good example of this?

Regards,

Kakomeister

[takvor]

Who do you ######ing think you are to pretend you can come to this site to challenge any Armenian with your stupid theories?

None will provide you any answer to your preposterous thheories, for simply there's no challenge, Turco.

Nobody will challenge any nazi-like theories of yours, and of the nazi-like Turkish govt.

So, don't waste your time, you won't find any friendly ear that is naive enough to match up with your stupidity.

[Kakomeister]

Takvor,I am a Turk who is not afraid of your ignorance, racism, rage, and narrow-mindedness. Nor I am afraid of the Turkish government, its institutions and the dirts of the Ottomans. Since 1980s, Turkey became increasingly democratic, though far from ideal, and young Turks have become more educated, extremely self-critical and questioning. I know this makes you even more jealous, because you are not used to this free exchange of ideas. Your are rather used to raid your own parliament and machine gun your own ministers and MPs. What a tradition of democracy you have in Armenia!I did not write bullshit or propaganda, I only wrote facts. It is a sign of your shortcoming and absence of IQ, if you call these facts lies without disproving them. And I am speaking only for myself, I don't claim to represent all Turks, so you don't have a right to speak for all Armenians.Your brothers who kill their own parliamentarians or Azerbaijani children may agree with you, but not the entire Armenian nation.

[дитя арарата]

Who do you ######ing think you are to pretend you can come to this site to challenge any Armenian with your stupid theories?

don't do that bro? let hin explain his point of view.Kakomeister I wont to hear from you brief message about action happened in west armenia between 1915-24. so, I wont to make sure, your brain didn't washed up by ataturk's followers antiarmenian propaganda and I also wont to understand by hearing from you clearly a purpose to come to talk to people, who count you enemy. then we start to talk.

[Artur]

guys, lets throw away our anger and try to discuss...

Kakomeister, indeed many political positions were held by Armenians. Large amount of businesses were owned by armenians, not mentioning the scientists etc. Russians though had nothing to do with it... it started under the rule of Abdulhamid II, whith cruel policy. Western Armenia was a part of Ottoman Empire before him, and there were no complaints. What is the reason for a nation to raise if they are not descriminated? We lived with each other and we could have lived, but the policy of the Ottoman Empire that what made some (!) armenians to make some actions. Many were dissapointed and angry but we did not raise against the Ottomans. When Ottomans were annoyed with our complaints they decided to wipe the Armenians out of their lands. Starting by hanging, killing all of Armenian diplomats, scientists etc, ending by raping women. They had no mercy, raping mothers in front of their children... etc. etc. you know better than me what they were capable of...

Armenians formed no majorities in any contiguous region of the empire (with the exception of some cities such as Erzurum, Kayseri where they were the majority), so it was impossible to justify the territorial claims by ethnic reasoning.

Cmon man, what about Ani? Ardvin... ? lets put this away... it's a fact that these lands were populated long before turkic tribes came to the region. Agree? it's a historical fact. furthermore, these lands were center of birth of armenian nation. you can't deny that...

I hope that you can make a similar analogy for today's Eastern Turkey as well as the Azerbaijani territories occupied by Armenia.

I wouldn't use the word occupied, as the lands we freed from so called azeri nation (note: no such nation existed 100 years before), plus Karabakh as well as Nahichevan never belonged to them before 1921.

Your brothers who kill their own parliamentarians or Azerbaijani children may agree with you, but not the entire Armenian nation.

What does the killing of parliamentarians have to do with this topic? about azerbaijani children, it is another sign how you are brainwashed by your own and azeri media. you don't know what they did in Baku, Sumgait etc. do you? it is a disgrace for Armenians to kill women and children... we are not turks, neither azeris!

[дитя арарата]

As a Turkish citizen, I have to admit that I owe all Armenians an apology because of what happened in the past. Regardless of whether we call it deportation (Turkish version) or genocide (Armenian version), lots of civilian Armenians suffered, got deported, or died. To the shame of Ottoman authorithies, the deported Armenians did not have protection on their way to Syria, but it was mostly Kurdish Hamidiye regiments which attacked, looted and killed Armenians. However, many Armenians are so much blinded with anti-Turkish rage that they cannot accept these Kurdish brutalities.

don't forget armenians were killed by kurds which was activated and permitted to kill by turkish govermemt. don' even try to decline it, the world history didn't written by turks. your knowelege about turkish history is nonsense. try to learn somethink here. what kurds could say about you?

This war and all other wars in Southern and Northern Kurdistan have been caused by Turkeys barbaric and senseless prevention of forming an Independent Kurdistan in 1920, keeping the 5 million Kurds in Southern Kurdistan and 18 million Kurds in North Kurdistan in constant bloody clashes and wars for freedom in the past 83 years. If the League of Nations implemented an independent Kurdistan in 1920, there would have been no wars, and no tyrant regimes in Iraq would have dared to emerge. What Turkey did against Kurds in 1920 has had a similar domino effect in all other parts.

[Kakomeister]

дитя арарата,

You should definitely have you brain checked, in case there is anything left in it, chances are you have a mental disorder. First, you want to have a response from me, and request our caveman Takvor not to insult me. Then you change your mind, call me an asshole & animal, then change your mind again, read my apology, try to be a nice guy again. Come on, man, now I will have to return to you your ugly insults and what, are we going to involve in a cyber piss-fight? But I'am not going to be asshole because you called me one, neither you will be an asshole because I called you one. Grow up, get mature, and seek professional help.

Artur,

Our intelligent friend Takvor was insulting the Turkish democracy, I just wanted to make a point by mentioning the raid of the Armenian parliament. I only wanted to show that the Turkish democracy, despite its corruptness and shortcomings, is functioning better than the Armenian one.

You are certainly right about mentioning the massacres of Sumgait and Baku, and those those Azeris committed them should go to jail in this life and to hell in the afterlife. This, however, cannot be an excuse for executing women and children in Karabagh, the news of which I did not read in the Turkish media, but in British Observer, and Washington Post.

Even German 'der Spiegel', which is the most anti-Turkish publication you can ever find in Germany, called the Armenian actions barbarian, brutal, and shameful.

About the populations in Ani and Artvin, I found out that you were right that the Turks were not a majority. I assume that the majority was Armenian in Ani, and Georgian in Artvin ( Even today a significant part of Artvin's population is Georgian). Or maybe the majority was Armenian in Artvin, but after to WW1, it was

As you have witnessed, I have already apologized for the Ottoman attrocities against Armenians between 1915-1924. I furthemore called Abdulhamid II, Talaat and Enver war criminals & animals, and stated my embarassment that they represented my nation & history. None of my great - grandparents participated in this shame, but I still feel sorry for the victims of these bloodthirsty animals.

Unfortunately, nobody in this forum, with the possible exception of you, is capable of establishing a civilised dialogue with a Turkish person. As long as your people are unable to deal with conscientious and Armenian-friendly Turks, all you deserve and get will be assholes like Enver, Talat and others, and we will not move one inch forward.

[Artur]

Kakomeister, there is a Biblical quote not sure how it is in english, but something to do look at the eye of your friend and tell him may i take a dust from yours not seeing a wood in your eye. It is not for a turks to blame Armenians killing women and children.Anyways, if you want i will explain you that the brutalities in Khojaly were done by Azeris (!!!)... and they were done not in Khojaly but in Agdam which is few killometers away from Khojaly. I can justify my answers, if you want we will open the seprate topic, but matter of fact, videos exist how azeri oposition in favour of whom were to blame the politicians massacared their own people. You don't believe what you hear right? But an Azeri reporter who shoot the videos in Agdam region and published what he had seen in the magazine was killed few days later what happened there. Heydar Aliev who was at the administration of Nahichivan told to journalists, we shouldn't intervene what is happening in Khojaly, it is in our favour. Azeris are showing the photos of children killed and women raped. Soldiers standing next to these bodies... question: how could this be possible? Whouldn't that mean that armenians raped them, massacared these kids and then left them for azeris to come and shoot the bodies? About BBC and Washington Post... whose pictures did they publish? Azeri's... but another reporter in times if I am not mistaken who was in Khojaly at the time reported that Armenians in Khojaly left a corridor... for citizen of Khojaly to leave... but azeri soldiers did not allow them to leave the village forced them to stay in order to die under the heavy fire. Man, you can see it on video... i saw it myself...

[candid]

Hello Kakomeister,Nice to hear apologies and reasonable voices from our Turkish opponents. I believe that the majority of current Turkish populations thinks that Armenians deserved what happened to them. In this regards your position can be considered very welcomed, however I cannot agree with it .Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Cyprus, Lebannon, Syria, Iraq, Montenegro, Albania, you name it, eventually could revolt and deserved the independence from Ottomans. In some provinces of Bulgaria, Greece Turks were/are in overwheling majority, but nevertheless those countries forced Ottomans to give up those territories as Ottomans did it centuries before taking them over.The independence movement is a natural process and once Ottomans became weaker those opressed started to revolt. They were not definetely trators, they just wanted to be the masters of their destinies. Turks themeselves were hardly the majority in this vast empire nevertheless they were the rulers. Once empire started to squeeze the European Turks were settling in Armenian lands as well as Caucasian muslims ousted by Russians. Armenians were a maotiry on this lands over 2 thousands years and still were largest ethnic group in many vilayets before WW I. Forceful expropriatin of the land possessed by Armenians in favor of Turks, Kurds, and other muslims is not a reason why Armenians should give up their intentions now. The only reason that Armenias could not overcome the Turkish rule is a lack of force (like Chechens in Russia). What should be done now ? Armenians might never have enough power to take them back (like once Seljucks did it with Buzantium ) but this is not most important question now. The Turks enjoy more or less decent relations with the majoruty of their former colonies but not with Armenians. This is a paradox. The nations which make Turks give up the lands of Empire by force and humiliation are respected neighbors nowdays. The nation who suffered one of the greatest tradegies in the human history is among most hated. The issue of N Karabagh shows that Turkey doesn't have any regrets for the past and if it is needed it will exercise the same brutality against Armenians of NK (overweilming majority, if this can be treated as enough excuse for revolt) as it was doing in the past and on the other hand having the similar problem in Cyprus. The power is the king. This days you are the ones who have it and you enjoy it. Should Armenians become more powerful then the turn on the Turks would come to visit the sacred places now in the hands of more powerful nation (like Arabs cry for Jerusalem).