The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree

[voter]

.....

Turkish Armed Forces wanting 70 years show it such, that all the country supports them and they were only supported during all that period from Europe&US as a possible ally against Russia, thatwhy there was no democracy in turkey.

Since last elections, when Erdogan won, it make clear no US moreover Europe interested to have millitary Turkey and there will not be a millitary Turkey also after election 2007.

May be there will be another goverment, who will not want EU membership, but main thing ist, the Militry Kemalistik Turkey is already History...

Nowadays the happenings around the killings made by member of turkisch nationalistic gray wolfs group, confirm my seeings, that there is a demilitarisation process going on in Turkey.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gunman-ki...7545421306.html

Gunmen seems had a support and order from the highest level Generals.

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&hn=33373

Military Kemalistik part of Turkey are losing their power and trying to put down Erdogan's goverment...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i has been a very long time since the last post but when i saw the topic i wanted to say a few words; unfortunately, pessimistic.let's assume that turkey says "yes we are invaders here, we have no right on this lands" and goes. what will happen? armenia will say "here is the western armenia" and kurds will say "here is the northern kurdistan" you want mount ararat, right? on the mount ararat, there are kurdish guerillas now. How will you eliminate them? in the years of 1908-1916, kurds killed many armenians; as you know. probably they killed more than turks did. if turkey abandons the eastern anatolia, these two nations will again suffer from massacres. sad, but true.

[SamvelT]

i has been a very long time since the last post but when i saw the topic i wanted to say a few words; unfortunately, pessimistic.let's assume that turkey says "yes we are invaders here, we have no right on this lands" and goes. what will happen? armenia will say "here is the western armenia" and kurds will say "here is the northern kurdistan" you want mount ararat, right? on the mount ararat, there are kurdish guerillas now. How will you eliminate them? in the years of 1908-1916, kurds killed many armenians; as you know. probably they killed more than turks did. if turkey abandons the eastern anatolia, these two nations will again suffer from massacres. sad, but true.

It does not give Turkey any moral Right to step down from this issue , as well as it does not mean that Turkey has any physical or moral Right to this territory . Your position is a position of goverment of Turkey , because You are asking for solution from the victims side . Sorry , I ( personally ) don't have any answers for Turkey . Somebody on your side of the story should find the solution . It is easier anyway to ask for forgivness , than genociding the nation ... Don't You think so ? Besides , the interest rate of what Turkey will owe to armenians in let's say ... 10 years from now , will be little higher than it is today . Simly it's another 10 years of denial and search for excuses ... Because of that instability of the situation , the gennie is out of the bottle , I don't see any progress of turkish economy nor political life , other than they try to bluff and build meaningless railroads around Armenia and other such an acts to pressure Armenia ... Well it's all bluff , You know it and I know it ... From the other side , with recognition of the Genocide , both sides can come closer in their positions for reconciliation and programms to solve the kurdish factor and many other issues , including international help to Turkey and Armenia and kurds (financial , political , moral ... just name it ) . Nobody wants to invest in to the country under suspicion of comitting the Genocide . If one does , that means they are blackmailing this country . So ... it's a Turkey's move ... and they postpone it ever since Genocide ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

samvelt i'm a little confused about what you say. in fact, i didn't understand anything would you please simplify your statement about the solution? i didn't say anything about solution, cuz i think the solution is simple, the difficult thing is to apply the solution and i didn't understand the "genie in a bottle" metaphor, either. i guess it's a song of christina aguilera :)what i meant is we're trying to make our government face the facts of the history. but after all, accepting the borders of the sevres agreement is impossible for republic of turkey. they did the genocide to capture those lands, i think they would rather try to do it again than giving the western anatolia to armenia. and even if they give, kurds will never. so the democratic change will occur, sooner or later; but for the borders there is no solution except blood-spilling. and i hope there will be no war in middle east anymore. maybe it's a kind of utopia, but i offer to live together without any borders after our revolution in turkey. it's improbable but really possible

[SamvelT]

samvelt i'm a little confused about what you say. in fact, i didn't understand anything would you please simplify your statement about the solution? i didn't say anything about solution, cuz i think the solution is simple, the difficult thing is to apply the solution and i didn't understand the "genie in a bottle" metaphor, either. i guess it's a song of christina aguilera :)what i meant is we're trying to make our government face the facts of the history. but after all, accepting the borders of the sevres agreement is impossible for republic of turkey. they did the genocide to capture those lands, i think they would rather try to do it again than giving the western anatolia to armenia. and even if they give, kurds will never. so the democratic change will occur, sooner or later; but for the borders there is no solution except blood-spilling. and i hope there will be no war in middle east anymore. maybe it's a kind of utopia, but i offer to live together without any borders after our revolution in turkey. it's improbable but really possible

Well , You are asking for solution from the victim . Don't You think we have it for ourselves , but not for turks . In other words our advise will be and in fact is painful for turks already . Geene out of bottle - is an expression , meaning that the question is already out of the tabu zone , and turks are disscussing it - there's no way back to hide it from the public . Somebody is getting angry , somebody start thinking about solutions and somebody is trying to bluff or in other words put the responcibility on the shoulders of the victims or anybody else but their own . from armenian prospective , at least for the next few centuries , it is impossible to live with anybody , specialy with turks without borders . Because what was promised to armenians long before the Genocide , was brocked . I'm talking about socio-economic , religious , ethnic problems in Ottoman Empire from dominating powers inside the empire ... That's why actually armenians turned their heads toward Russia , France , G. Britain etc. You see , it's a big misunderstanding by the turks , what armenians should do and what they can accept living toghether with turks . Would You agree , for instance , to be assimilated , called armenian etc. Why armenian in his home , should protect interest of the Turkey . Call it Armenia , let the prisident of all Country be only ethnic armenian , the list can go on and all what turk have to do , is be quiet ... Can You accept it ? I don't think so ... So unless we will become 70 million people nation , I don't think we will live with turks in one country . That's very simplified version of the much longer conversation we can have later , but now I have to run ... Sorry , and it's a pleasure to talk with You ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i see, but there is a little difference in my offer. the nations in the ottoman empire suffered so many tragedies because of the government regulation change. before ITC (ittihat ve terakki cemiyeti) the ruling idea was "ottomanism" The empire used to see everyone as an Ottoman citizen. the only discrimination was because of the religious differences. But it is the notion of the feodal age, as you know. ITC started the bourgeois revolution, and its main ideology has been nationalism since the french revolution. And then the discrimination began. Before that as we already know dashnaktsutyun and ITC were allies agains the emperor.What i offer is going beyond them, kicking off the nationalism; seperating religious life from the common life and setting an equal citizenship. this project may last for centuries of course, because we turks must first succeed it in our kurdish question. if we can do it as kurds and turks; then we can do it with you too.but of course it's only you who can determine your own destiny, if you choose other formulas including harsh policies, i will respect but not be so helpful because at the last analysis i don't believe in nations and i will refuse to be included in this feeble war. it's my pleasure to talk with you. take care my friend.

[Egern.net]

i has been a very long time since the last post but when i saw the topic i wanted to say a few words; unfortunately, pessimistic.

let's assume that turkey says "yes we are invaders here, we have no right on this lands" and goes. what will happen? armenia will say "here is the western armenia" and kurds will say "here is the northern kurdistan" you want mount ararat, right? on the mount ararat, there are kurdish guerillas now. How will you eliminate them? in the years of 1908-1916, kurds killed many armenians; as you know. probably they killed more than turks did. if turkey abandons the eastern anatolia, these two nations will again suffer from massacres. sad, but true.

Dear fraternity for eternity,

I was reading all your posts and discussions in this forum and I'm very glad to see an antinationalist Turk here. I had many things to discuss with you but I'm affraid of misunderstanding because of my bad English.

Sorry for offtop here: I'm not going to discuss this topic but want to understand something other.

You struggle for good relations between Armenian and Turkish people, you try to create a topic for meetings between two nations (glad to see such idea!), also you recognize and condemn the Armenian Genocide... But why did you say this? (I'm quoting again):

kurds killed many armenians; as you know. probably they killed more than turks did. (formatting by Egern.net)

What did this mean??? I wouldn't pay attention on this expression if you were a Turkish nationalist. Yes, you said that Kurds had killed many Armenians, but why did you compare them with Turks (at all)?

Was it a mistake or was it an effect of some books/articles you've probably read about "armenian tales" (you spoke about education catastrophe in Turkey)??? I don't believe you want to take the guilt off Turks (as you recognize the Genocide)... I really want to understand the core of this sentence.

Sorry again for my English. Hope you understood me well.

Best regards,

Hrant

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

no of course i didn't make any efforts to to take the guilt off turks. at least, the kurds' murders were condoned by turks. moreover the empire drafted a special army of kurds (hamidiye troops) for this job.

i say that, because there is a pragmatic essence in armenian expressions. you need to defeat turks to dictate your demands at the moment, it's O.K. you forget what kurds did to you. but if kurdistan declares independence from turkey in eastern anatolia, i doubt that you will continue to carry out the same policy. maybe then you will remember what kurds did. now you say "turkey admit your guilt" in your protests but in the future it may change to "kurdistan you admit your guilt too"

so what i actually mean is you don't behave absolutely candid, there is a little pragmatism inside. if i'm wrong please correct.

good night, write me soon

edit: by the way, to prevent misconception i have to say that hamidiye troops were effective between 1891-1913. they were dispersed after that. but their presence encouraged the kurdish irregulars to kill armenians without the fear of government.

Edited February 2, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[SamvelT]

i see, but there is a little difference in my offer. the nations in the ottoman empire suffered so many tragedies because of the government regulation change. before ITC (ittihat ve terakki cemiyeti) the ruling idea was "ottomanism" The empire used to see everyone as an Ottoman citizen. the only discrimination was because of the religious differences. But it is the notion of the feodal age, as you know. ITC started the bourgeois revolution, and its main ideology has been nationalism since the french revolution. And then the discrimination began. Before that as we already know dashnaktsutyun and ITC were allies agains the emperor.

What i offer is going beyond them, kicking off the nationalism; seperating religious life from the common life and setting an equal citizenship. this project may last for centuries of course, because we turks must first succeed it in our kurdish question. if we can do it as kurds and turks; then we can do it with you too.

but of course it's only you who can determine your own destiny, if you choose other formulas including harsh policies, i will respect but not be so helpful because at the last analysis i don't believe in nations and i will refuse to be included in this feeble war.

it's my pleasure to talk with you. take care my friend.

Yes , I've read about alliance between ARF Dashnaktsutyun and ITC in 1907 ... I also must admit that some other armenian leaders of first republic wanted to unite Eastern Armenia with Western under jurisdiction of Turkey , against Russia ... Buy the way in 1920 or so ...You see , I don't even want to judge it because I was not there ... I can assume what was meant under circumstances by those leaders but that's it . My personal opinion is that Turkey has more to say , but something is withholding them to do so . What exactly , I can assume ... But it should be more reliable than that - it should come out from Turkey , not Armenia . By now I understood one formula , that if we will try to make any attempt to "forget" the Genocide , it will be taken as granted not just by turks , but by many other people and countries in the World ... It is not just us and turks , it is larger than two nations . I don't want to sound like messianic messenger all what I really want to make clear , is that all of us leave on the same Planet and when we do something , we should think about opinion of the nations populating this planet , how much respect and what for we will gain , and how much disrespect and corrosion will bring us such an act . That's why most of armenians agree on one point , e should discuss the issue , but on equal terms and by equally truthfull and respectfull side , without "tricks" ... If this is not to much to ask , then we are ready ... Well , at least I'm ready ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

it's everyone's hope to see a discussion without lies and tricks between our countries. but the greed of "national interests" doesn't allow an honest discussion between states. we should never think that a state can be honest. honesty is against the nature of the state actually intellectual people of our nations should do the discussions, and manufacture public opinion and by the force of politicized masses we should urge our states to be honest. (an maybe we can get around to subvert our state long live the anarchy )

Edited February 3, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[SamvelT]

Well , this is follow up of the other discussion , actually ... I can say read this part and answer there or read there and answer here ... But the greed of national interests is to make this nation as much as possible less agressive and as a follow up more productive . It is an excuse of people , that they use time and time again , national interests . And yes , You pointed right on the spot , they are not intellectuals , they are not progressive . So they use any kind of cover up ( brainwashing of sort ) , to hide their own inability to solve the problem . At the same time the intellectuals are not active enough or beaten by main power holders . Orhan Pamuk or Taner Akcham did more than any media propaganda to both armenians and turks . Am I right ? They oppened the eyes of both nations and pointed us to the other side of the coin . For us it already big achievment , to know that not all turks are bad ... I hope and turks have the same fillings thoward armenians , for example : not all armenians are terrorists or at least , that some of armenians had a point to be heard ... This is the job of intellectuals from both sides to move the things forward , otherwise it's not gonna end never ... And I hope it will .

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

wow i didn't know that taner akcham is known in your side. right, he is a very very important person. he touched kemaalists' sore spot by involving kemal ataturk to the issue. what an interesting thing, he was not taken into court

and of course we never think that all of the armenians are hypnotized by their evil state in direct contradiction, in turkey there's a strong opinion like "dashnak party is atrocious against azeris but people of armenia are very good people. (but everyone in diaspora is a foe)"

but i think your educated people should communicate with turks more, we mostly learn the thoughts of your side from system of a down i remember just one interview with an armenian intellectual in our newspapers. she was a poet who died last year. what was the name of her?

edit: i should never forget the contributions of armenians in turkey; etyen mahchupyan, migirdic magrosyan and hrant dink of course.

Edited February 6, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[SamvelT]

SOAD is not for everyone , even though they are highly appreciated by everyone for their efforts . They are very active , but older people have their preferences in music etc. About Taner Akcham I can't say of his sidelining with armenians , but by his own believes - yes . What I know for sure , he is honest man and I'll respect his judgement even if it will interfere with mine or more or less armenian in general . You see , I am (personally) ready to have a disscussion with such a people from turkish side . Hope , I didn't pose mr. Akchams position as a betrayer of turkish side , but showed my respect to his personal honesty and integrity in a hostile atmosphere to him from his own people . He is a man of liberal thinking which to me means of his personal progress and ability to think on his own .

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

in he hears that you said "liberal" to him, he may change his mind about armenians (taner akcham was in the administrative staff of "revolutionary way", the most powerful communist group in turkey in '70s)

i told about our campaign about palling up with armenian students. armenian friends in turkey got angry with us when we told that we're trying to contact with armenians in other countries. they accused us for ignoring them in this issues. but if we can finish off this job we will be experienced and self-suffiecient enough to communicate with foreign armenians too. i'm very glad to see you eager to dialogues. do you have any suggestions for us?

[SamvelT]

Sorry , it took me longer time this time to answer . Finally I'm here ... Well liberalizm is a psychology i my view , not the ideology ... So , that's why I referred to taner Akcham ( if I did ) as a liberal . From the other hand I did find out not to be disturbed by the claims ( not from You ) of liberals as a bad people at all . In any country with copmletely different political agendas , any new way( request for change) is considered as a liberalism , because it asks for changes .Of course I'm not talking of the coupes , but even military coupes can be progressive too ( why not ?) ... What about your armenian friends in Turkey , it is different opinions of ones who lives inside and outside ( of Turkey ) . They should have their own view and I hope to hear it one day , to better understand it ...

[Egern.net]

no of course i didn't make any efforts to to take the guilt off turks. at least, the kurds' murders were condoned by turks. moreover the empire drafted a special army of kurds (hamidiye troops) for this job.

i say that, because there is a pragmatic essence in armenian expressions. you need to defeat turks to dictate your demands at the moment, it's O.K. you forget what kurds did to you. but if kurdistan declares independence from turkey in eastern anatolia, i doubt that you will continue to carry out the same policy. maybe then you will remember what kurds did. now you say "turkey admit your guilt" in your protests but in the future it may change to "kurdistan you admit your guilt too"

so what i actually mean is you don't behave absolutely candid, there is a little pragmatism inside. if i'm wrong please correct.

good night, write me soon

edit: by the way, to prevent misconception i have to say that hamidiye troops were effective between 1891-1913. they were dispersed after that. but their presence encouraged the kurdish irregulars to kill armenians without the fear of government.

Sorry for my late response.

Thanks for answer, dear Fraternity.

We (Armenians) don't accuse Turks because the murderers were Turks. I'm sure, you know, that Turkish intellectuals didn't kill Armenians. Killers were criminals, prisoners, poor people and so on - and they all were Muslims (not only Turks). The policy was something like this: "you can kill these armenians and take there holding, you'll not be punished". We accuse Turks because the authors of the Genocide were Turks, because panturkism was a Turkish policy.... I think you must understand this.

P.S. Without any doubt there were many bandit groups even after 1913. They were not called hamidiye, but they did practically the same.......