The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree

[ozzyoi]

Voter,

You need to understand the difference between nazi's and ottomans. The continuity of state I speak of is of vital importance for all of us to understand. There was no 'nazi empire of hitler'. It was the 'nazi party within the german state'. The sate is the same as it is today, more or less, excluding the reunification that has traspired since. It is this continuity of state that I speak of. This is why germany is liable. This continuity in state does not exist with ottomans and tc. Do you understand my point?

Your last 2 lines...well explained, I think youve hit it on the head. Fear is a greater driver of decisions and emotions, not just for turks, for all people. This above everything is a well known scientific fact. So good point.

Kars,

Similar to your disclaimer, I must too state mine that is of a similar nature. In addition, I have never any intention of offending anyone intentionally, if I have, either forgive me or bring it to my attention and we can resolve it.

I believe you have not really misunderstood, but maybe viewed my posts through 'foggy' glasses. Youve chosen to bring forward some of my statements not wholly and fully, but only partially....

1- Firstly one must know reality to admit it. People in tc do not know, no matter what you may have yourself think. There is no reason to believe they do....just look at the texts, libraries, laws, media etc etc. They simply are not ready as a gvt or people, be it emotionally or intellectually. The readiness I elude to is about awareness.Will you dispute or agree with me that, as tc stands right now, its impossible?This is not a debate of whether they should or shouldnt. I am stating that they cannot due to inability and many defficiencies at this point in time. Don't underestimate 'national pride'. I don't think you can down play the influences of 'national pride' on a peoples actions and thinking. Just look at armenians in general, do you believe they have any less national pride than the average turk? History has proven 'national pride or whatever' has shaped many events, policies be it good or bad.

2- Once again you've not reading my entire post fully. I never blamed the armenian lobby for where the situation is today between the nations. But don't for a moment be naive to think that the lobby is helping bridge the gap either.I don't know about your position is but my hope is for the coming closer of the 2 proples, not drifting apart. I clearly stated what in my opinion was the cause for the gap widening, and it was a combination of turk and armenian contributions. I am openely admitting turkish contribution, are you denying armenian contribution in making the matter worse?

3- I understand that it is your assertion that tc is culpable for the crimes of the ottomans. Can you please factualise this for me so I too can understand why you say this. And Im aware the denial from tc is a form of conspiring, however this does not replace or equate to the perpetrating of a crime and inheriting culpability. I eagerly await your posts on this matter.

4- I am not insisting anything. I was lacking in knowledge, hence why I asked for assistance on this matter. You are either very selective or careless in how you read my posts....

'Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones."

There is no insistance bro, Im looking for answers. Not someone to blame. The reality is, Ive been looking for real factual information to ascertain the how's and why's of land being given back. So far nobody is giving me anything other than opinions which are not based on any international law or relevant precedents. Rational & logical thinking will tell you the giving back of land is highly questionable. Maybe to individuals, but certainly not ROA It will also tell you that tc, as a separate entity from the ottomans does not owe the armenian people who've suffered anything other than recognition & empathy. Which it should be able to do easily anyway.

I hope Ive been ale to clarify my viewpoints on sime issues for you better. Try to understand that some things are my definitive personal viewpoints. There are also issues I don't carry a viewpoint and am looking and researching to be able to have one. This is why I asked for assistance to bounce ideas off people. There is always something that someone else knows that I don't.

[MiG-35]

Ozzyoi.

You mentioned that others do not read your texts very carefully, but you, too, seem to have missed or ignored my question above. Namely: you more than once stresses the point that:

“…People in tc do not know, no matter what you may have yourself think. There is no reason to believe they do....just look at the texts, libraries, laws, media etc etc. They simply are not ready as a gvt or people, be it emotionally or intellectually. The readiness I elude to is about awareness...”

I admit, this is a considerable problem. However, to understadn the things properly, let us for a moment consider not the people of, say, Anatolia, who may really have no books or TV programs to learn about the Genocide, but the Turks living in Europe or US. Need I say that they do have plenty of opportunities to hear, to watch or to read about the Genocide? Nevetheless, as we regretfully see, they as well deny Genocide… This observation shows that the problem is not in simple ignorance…

I have comments about the other points, too (including the “lands”). But in order not to mix things, I’d like to consider this first.

[ozzyoi]

mig35,

One cannot deny that turks abroad hold a similar position as those in tc. I would love to say I have a single definitive answer as to why, but I know there isn't.

I believe it can be attributed to several reasons why this is so. I will list them in simplistic form but am aware they can open a whole can of worms themeselves.

1- Its simply not a pressing issue, a current affair on the minds of turks in general

2- many turks abroad too are educated at some stage either in tc itself, or abroad via tc gvt texts as well

3- pride wont allow them to even contemplate the possibility (close minded). This is similar to a blind belief in tc gvt, not just this topic, but all topics

4- we turks in general have a complex of not having friends internationally(justified or not, this is a reality) . The immediate defensive reactions are attributed to this in general

5- turks are intelligent people, but lazy people. This laziness dominates their ability to seek, ask and probe further other than what they are told.

6- turks are a product of society no more or less than anyone else, a world full of litigation is one to be feared of. The potential of compensation is enough alone to drive people into denial.

7- Im going to stick my neck out here on this one and say this....I think you will have more turks accepting of the genocide if there wasn't such a total and blanket denial of atrocities committed by armenians towards turks at the time. I know this is a huge debate on its own, but I dont really want to further this discussion because this is not what the thread is.

One must also look at the phenomena that makes people become more patriotic once they move abroad. This is also not a factor that should be underestimated. As for the younger generation of turks born, living and bred abroad, this is really a non-issue. The attitude is 'well what do you want me to do about it, it happened 100yrs ago and it aint my business'. I know these are generalisations but they are heavily prevalent ones.

Personally I haven't had any tc education in any way shape or form. Ive lived in australia all my life. The topic of the genocide is not even something Ive barely heard or witnessed in the home environment.Ive simply not been exposed to any influence in any way.

In the establishing of my opinion whether there was a genocide or not was very simple. I just needed to make myself think on a purely humane manner. I put my turkish or australian patriotism aside. Also put my loyalty to the islamic faith aside. All I see is human loss of life on a large scale that shouldn't have happened. I say shouldn't because it is be attributed to human decisions. Decisions were made, right or wrong. If it was a cold blooded extermination and death march, it was wrong. Even if it wasn't, and it was a deportation for strategic purposes, at the end of the day the ottoman gvt states they were responsible for the protection of these people. Be it gangs, be it starvation, be it disease, be it whatever...the promised protection was not delivered. Someone must take responsibility for this.

I dont care whose life it is, life is life. No life is more or less important than anothers.

[Egern.net]

TO ozzyoi

I want to ask you some simple questions:

1. Do you agree that Armenian Genocide is FACT?

2. Do you agree that the worst crimes (such as Genocide) must be condemned very firmly?

3. Do you agree that the worst crimes must be recognized by the country in which it has realized?

4. Do you agree that the suffered nation from Genocide must be compensated?

5. Do you agree that every normal historian knows that Armenian Genocide is FACT, and who don’t tell the truth, they are afraid or are lie tellers?

6. Do you agree that casting doubt on fact is nonsense?

Please, answer very simply, YES or NO.

Thanks.

Also, you said that

So far nobody is giving me anything other than opinions which are not based on any international law or relevant precedents.

I will answer that Armenians, after Genocide recognition, will resettle their native lands and then they can unionized with the modern Republic of Armenia, as every nation has the right to self-determination (by UN and OSCE conventions).

[ozzyoi]

egern.net,

I dont care to answer your questions the way you wish for them to be answered. I either answer the way I like, if you don't like that, please dont communicate with me. Most are answered anyway, just read.

The right to self-determination? This does not apply to armenians, you already are self determined. Its called ROA. The right to self-determination applies to peoples like kurds and palestinians. If you cannot differentiate between compensating individuals for assets seized & the somehow miraculously giving back land of historical western armenia.....I feel sorry for you. You are going to one day come to terms with a major newsflash that it won't happen. Im sorry if Im offending you, but what fairy tales have you been reading? Im sorry to say but the entire world map would need to be changed and turned upside down if we were to follow your logic.

Speaking of maps, have you even seen the up-to-date world map lately? I think you may find the one in ROA is a little out-of-date. And you want to talk about 'normal'?

This discussion is getting hijacked once again towards animosity. I prefer to discuss things in an environment where there is no aggression. If it can be done, I prefer to stay and discuss these issues with respect. If I'm rubbing people up the wrong way and Im not welcome, Im a bog boy and can handle it, just ask me to leave and I'd be more than happy to leave and find someone else who can.

Edited December 10, 2005 by ozzyoi

[Shenyаtsi]

When Armenians asking turkish people simple questions "Do you agree that it was a Genocide of Armenian people by turks?" turkish people taking this only one way...." ... here it goes again....... armenians so nerrow and asking same questions, and they do not see biger picture,.........." and blah-blah-blah.... Please understand one simple thing, we are asking this same questions to understand your level of evalution. May be one day you will say to this question "yes, now we get it.... it was a genocide and it is bad... normal people must not do it...." After this, and only wfter this, we will consider you as people who are trying to be like normal people.... Then we have to go through some time to verify if your answer was not BS again.... After all this we may hsake your hand.... But what I am talking about... perfect world? .......... sorry, drawing this optimistic picture which may be done about 500 years after today...

For today all we can do is business. One measurement unit in $$$. It is not a requierement to be a human to be a businessman. So, in this mode it will be easy for you to establish relationship with your neighbors... This is my thought only about all this... Ah, I forgat about Great Wall which we have to build between all torks and Armenians....

[Egern.net]

Ozzyoi,

I’m asking that 6 questions to many people and want to fill a form. If you don’t want to answer, no problem. BUT…

You said:

The right to self-determination? This does not apply to armenians, you already are self determined. Its called ROA. The right to self-determination applies to peoples like kurds and palestinians.

I think, you’re wrong here. Plrease, read and answer:

As I see, you’re sure that Turks have self determined.

But why Turks created a new country in the Northern Cyprus???

And why Republic of Turkey recognized it as independent country???

Hasn’t world map changed and turned upside down???

[ozzyoi]

Shenyatsi,

Why must I be the one to remind you what the subject if the thread is, you're a moderator. Ive made several posts in the last few weeks, none of these come even remotely near a denial of the genocide. This thread is about the various scenarios that may arise as a result of tc's recognition.......simple people like you and I are discussing this matter.

Fisrtly, I am not the lawyer for tc. I represent my opinion and that only. No offence, I personally dont even care what you consider normal or abnormal. Im not here to convince anyone of anything...just share ideas and opinions via a civilised discussion.

I dont even have any interest in what the outcome is with respect to tc recognition, giving back of land, compensation etc. My everything is in Australia. It doesnt affect me in any way.

Unfortunately, yes, you are after a perfect world, a nirvana, but I personally dont believe you will get it. For this reason, I think you may be waiting for even longer than 500 years.

Egern.net,

Firstly you should rethink your logic that 2 wrongs make a right OR that one sides wrongdoings can justify another sides wrongdoings. They do not cancel one another out! Wrong is still wrong, and right is still right no matter what spin you put on it.

- Yes, Turks have self-determined. Its called tc.

- The cypriot turks have a right to self-determination, because they live there. The armenians do not live in anatolia(irrespective of how)

- They have to recognise it as independant, they created the border. It would be nonsense not to. Were you genuinely expecting tc not to?

As for your question "But why Turks created a new country in the Northern Cyprus??? Im going to pretend I didnt read this question. This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.

'greeks butchering turks' & 'azeris butchering armenains'

'enosis' & 'azeri version of turanism'

'tc moves to save turk lives' & ' roa moves to save armenian lives'

'tc wins battlefield but loses at UN' & 'roa wins battlefield but loses at UN'

'no more cypriot turks butchered' & 'no more armenians butchered'

'true story of cyprus' & 'true story of nagorno karabag'

Any of this ring a bell???????????????????????Now I want you to answer my question that I asked before.

'This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.' Which one are you ??????

"Hasn’t world map changed and turned upside down???' . Yes it has. anatolia being apart of armenia has changed and turned upside down in armenian peoples minds and maps, nowhere else. kktc being independant on the map has changed and turned upside down. In the minds and maps of turks, nowhere else. These are all BS, its not happening anywhere other than in our own minds.

Also, I must inform you of some certain facts you are overlooking or not knowledgeable about. kktc has a physical/actual border, western armenia does not. kktc has an economy that is trading with most of the world (technically illegaly, but actually doing so), western armenia does not. kktc has a democratically elected gvt physically on the land itself, western armenia does not. kktc has school, libraries, hositals, power, communication, toursim etc etc etc, western armenia does not.The greeks and eu had to have a referendum to decide whether they wanted to join under a federation. You can't create a federation with something that is not existant. The greeks and eu acknowledge the existance of a state. .They dont however acknowledge its legitimacy. All kktc needs is UN recognition and its ready to go forward and integrate into the world community immediately as everything is functional .western armenia does not exist in any way shape or form other than in the minds of armenians.

Lets start calling things the way they really are!

[Shenyаtsi]

I dont even have any interest in what the outcome is with respect to tc recognition, giving back of land, compensation etc. My everything is in Australia. It doesnt affect me in any way.

That is classic.

I just would like to know if it will be discussion about Armenian Genocide in Turkey, how many people will say “Yes, it is true… and Yes it is bad and barbarian act…”. Probably majority of people will be very fanatic about it.... That is how I would like to measure people.....

About perfect world I think you missed the point......

[voter]

You need to understand the difference between nazi's and ottomans. The continuity of state I speak of is of vital importance for all of us to understand. There was no 'nazi empire of hitler'. It was the 'nazi party within the german state'. The sate is the same as it is today, more or less, excluding the reunification that has traspired since. It is this continuity of state that I speak of. This is why germany is liable. This continuity in state does not exist with ottomans and tc. Do you understand my point?

.........

ozzyoi, I am not sure, may be during technical problems of last days my answere was lost, but I got your point, your assumtion Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire is nice, from first point of view in this case there must not be any problems to condemn the crimes of ANOTHER country-ottoman empire.

But unfortunatly people in turkey want to have continuity from ottoman empire for claiming to have rights on lands from North Iraq till Balkans, but as I already mentioned, they do not want to have continuity of responsibilities of ottoman empire, that it had for nations living and lived in ottoman empire and now living in same territories but in "new" land turkey.

Desision between FULL continuity or FULL innovativity must happen in turkey.

Do they want to be a new "nation" or stay the old one, is the point also of EU.

Just because of condemning or not the crimes made by ottoman empire against his nationalities, turkey will be counted civilised european country or not... Will he do it as new or old or whatever country is secondary question...

[ozzyoi]

voter,

You said 'your assumtion Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire is nice'. This is not an assumption, it is fact. You need to move forward and accept this.

And yes, if they are not the same, it shoud be easier to recognise as genocide. They probably would if they accepted or believed or were knowedgeable enough. But they don't and weve already talked about the reasons for this.

There are some things in turkey I dont believe you have a good understanding of. Turks dont have land claims for balkans and nth iraq. This does not represent the large majority of turks. All it represents is a very small minority of dreamers. Turks only have claims in terms of political and cultural influence in these areas. Why? Tc has interests in these areas. There is nothing wrong with any country taking a pro-active role in areas outside its borders for their own interests and strategies. Is this abnormal?

The other main issue I dont understand is that how turks define themeselves, how they choose to think is really not anybodies business. It means nothing what eu or anyone for that matter thinks about how turks should see themselves. They can see themeselves however way they please. This is the evolution of a people that will take place irrespective of anything else. Nobody has the right to dictate what is civilised or uncivilised. If they do it correctly they will benefit, if they do it wrongly they will pay the price. Either way it only concerns turks.

You may like to believe that eu will pressure tc into recognition. This is my opinion but I dont believe eu even cares about the genocide. They only see the genocide as another issue to apply pressure to tc in making compromises. They will never make recognition a priority or a criteria.

Edited December 19, 2005 by ozzyoi

[Egern.net]

- The cypriot turks have a right to self-determination, because they live there. The armenians do not live in anatolia(irrespective of how)

.........................................

Also, I must inform you of some certain facts you are overlooking or not knowledgeable about. kktc has a physical/actual border, western armenia does not. kktc has an economy that is trading with most of the world (technically illegaly, but actually doing so), western armenia does not. kktc has a democratically elected gvt physically on the land itself, western armenia does not. kktc has school, libraries, hositals, power, communication, toursim etc etc etc, western armenia does not.The greeks and eu had to have a referendum to decide whether they wanted to join under a federation. You can't create a federation with something that is not existant. The greeks and eu acknowledge the existance of a state. .They dont however acknowledge its legitimacy. All kktc needs is UN recognition and its ready to go forward and integrate into the world community immediately as everything is functional .

Ozzyoi.

I became sure, that you're reading my posts partly. I said that Armenians can self-determine in Turkey (Western Armenia) when they return to their native lands. Armenians will live there, will have physical/actual border, will have economy, will have a democratically elected gvt, will have school, libraries, hositals, power, communication, toursim etc.

And after all, they CAN self-determine, as cypriot turks did. There is only one difference between Armenians and Turks. Cypriot turks reached their "self-determination" by force (but it's another topic). Armenians won't do this...

western armenia does not exist in any way shape or form other than in the minds of armenians.

Yes, but it existed for 2000 years before Genocide and WILL exist...

[voter]

There are some things in turkey I dont believe you have a good understanding of. Turks dont have land claims for balkans and nth iraq. This does not represent the large majority of turks. All it represents is a very small minority of dreamers.....

The trouble of turkey neighbours and EU is, that turks let that "very minority of dremers" guide all turkey and build a troubles for everybody, like they made with cypre,greece and in iraq,if not american troops, the compain against kurds would flow into iraq-territory,as well in 1994 turkisch troop were near the border of Armenia and waiting the moment to "protect" their interests and military generlas making passionate speeches about pan-turkism.

I know that this is minory like in any country, but in turkey this minority is militaries-generals, who have big influence and because of them the borders between Armenia&Turkey stay closed, even ignoring the fact that it works against economic development not only armenia but also turkey, especially eastern turkey.

Because of having direct connection between army and genocide it would be very hard, if not impossible to condemn that crime, without neutralization of military power, as of condemnation will be about turkisch army, who organized it.

How strog turks want to have militaristic influence in their country, is the main question which annoying EU and other neigbours of turkey and hope at least some part of present goverment of turkey.

And this disturbance of EU is not a try to teach what is civilized and what not, but oriented to reduction of war danger, main goal,why EU exists...

When one condemns crime and war, there is at least a hope, that it would not happen again...

[SamvelT]

To ozzyoi . Welcome back ! Yes unfortunately You are right and about evolution process for turks and EU - s pressureon Turkey . My personal opinion is that turks as a nation don't have good enough strategy to get out of the "mess" , that was created . And they are surrounded by all those circumstances of the Past and Present . But not only turks ... Also europeans and also armenians . The only difference is , that europeans can raise the issue of Genocide every time , when it's handy for them to do so (it's all about money , for them anyway , isn't it ?) . For armenians it's more about not to be a scapegoats for all World ( i.e. somebody wants to make money while we are being disposed ) . For Turkey do is a little bit different story : not to be blamed for their wish to make money while not letting somebody else to make money , while willing to make money with the ones who will not let us (and will blame us allways when handy) to make money . So Turkey becomes corrupt just because of one and only one issue . Otherwise there is no reason of any discussion of that kind . Nobody yet could escape from own shadow . It is not physical paine , but moral , that gives so much uncomfortability to turks . And the best they can do under circumstances is to try to forget all ( sometimes even offending , by using so "cheap labor " , like azeri's help ) , or to show up something "cheap" , like newly opened "Armenian Museum" in Istambul . The problem is that nobody except azeris is "bying" it . And turks realize that . I hope , I did not offend nobody personaly , but just tried to analize , why we are having discussion (only one of many sides of it ) . Best regards to You .

[ozzyoi]

egern.net,

Here you are talking about kktc again. I listed numerous similarities between kktc for turks and nagorno karabak for armenians. Firstly do you believe they are the same, or do you think differently? I know definitey that the two incidents are identical in my opinion. I still have not heard your response to my question to you.....

'This question shows to me either your selective sincerity & integrity, or your lack of knowledge on this topic.' Which one are you ??????

Please answer my question so I know your position.

Armenians returning to their native lands and then creating self-determination and joining with ROA. Do you really believe this? Do you think you are realistic or a dreamer? At best, armenians wil become tc citizens and live forever as good citizens, and thats about all. They will be compensated financially, land etc and thats about as good as it will get.

What happened for 2000 years does not mean anything. It does not equate to whats going to happen for another 2000 years. You are a very young, naive and blindly patriotic. Im not trying to offend you, they are actually very good traits...but better served if you want to be a soldier for your country.

voter,

Now I'm thinking we are getting to be on the same page. You've got it in my opinion. The army is exactly what you say they are. Majority people are not turanists but the army is. There is no doubt that the army is still the most powerful body in tc. The good news is, their power is slowly sinking. I know most armos dont like erdogan, but most turks do. This is taking place thanks to him. He is very slowly but surely undermining the army and putting them back in their place.

Im not sure I agree fully about your link between present tc army and genocide, but I know what you're trying to say.

Believe me I don't like the army and its power and some of their philosophies. This is why I personally wont be doing my military service.

samvelT,

I agree with much of what you say. Nobody cares enough about this topic in eu. This is why I dont listen much to their opinion on this matter. tc is in a mess but its not the mess it was in a decade or two decades ago. The mess was created by corrupt politicians and the army. All I know is this is an issue that must be resolved between turks and armenians. I don't give much credibility to what who has and who hasnt recognised the genocide. To me it is worthless what parliament A or parliament B thinks. I think it is a huge waste of effort & resources personally all these years. People may agree or disagree with me, but I can tell you this much....the more parliaments or countries that the armenian lobby succeeds to recognise the genocide...the further away you will drive tc from recognition. The method and philosophy used by the lobby is in contradiction to psychological techniques used to attract an admission.

The whole world still cannot make tc change their mind on kktc. tc is happy to go it alone against the whole world. Do you think they would be any different with the armenians?This is a very interesting topic all on it own that we may or may not get into. But it is not in line with the thread topic so I do apologise for straying the conversation elsewhere.

I just think that nobody else is of any good to us. We (turks & armenians) must solve this amongst ourselves. All I know is that before resolving the genocide question we must build trust. We must convince one another that the primary objective is to become friends again. I feel this is the key to everything. We must convince each other that there is anger but not hate. Things can be forgiven, but not forgotten.

[voter]

Sure Erdogans goverment is seldom if not the first one who really represents the people in turkey and not the "interests of turkey" made in usa, on money of which exists turkeisch army.

The connections between genocide and army are the documents, the copies of which exists in arxives of germany, us, france, uk etc.

The most of that documents especially the ones, diectly ordering the deportation of inhabitatns are military orders . The existance of this documents outside of turkey forced turkisch goverment at least declare their official position as "there were deportation,during which people died"...

For instance there were no military orders to massacer armenians in azerbaijan,that happens in Sumgait,Baku...

So condemnation of massacersof armenians in azerbajdan could stayon level of KRIMINAL INCIDENTS forcing normal azerbajan govermentfind and panisch some people and close the case.

But condemnation of genocdie will be recognition of Military orders as criminal and put under doubt the purity of military system of turkey.

I think Erdogan "desided" definitly to push EU membership, just because of it was the only way to neutralize the military influence in country, without loosing his power..

Millitary system would be the ONLY one in turkey, that would not have profit from condemnation of genocide.

Even the right of armenians get compensation, by wich military terrify people in turkey, could only helpful for turkey, as of it would be a reason to get more credits from EU and other World Financial Organization claiming, that "so big compensation will make turkey bankrupt"...

It is already going on, france, us, german big financial companies must pay the compensations and then the country where the people, who got that compensation, will deside to live, will profit from that.

But the cypre problem shows, that Erdogan feel, that there is dangerouos situation for him and he must go slowly. I guess genocide is much more easier solvable problem than the cypre, where again must be condemned the millitaries, who organized that...

[Egern.net]

Ozzyoi,

I asked you that question (but why Turks created a new country in the Northern Cyprus?) trying to show you, that Armenians can do the same.

But when you are doubting on my sincerity, I must ask you: if our discussion is honest, why didn't you answer on my first question (only) without any doubt: "Do you agree that Armenian Genocide is FACT? YES" (you may not answer on other questions, it's your right). It's fact and nobody can cast doubt on it....... But It's OFFTOPIC...Let's speak on concrete theme.

I'm glad to see you writing this:

At best, armenians wil become tc citizens and live forever as good citizens, and thats about all. They will be compensated financially, land etc and thats about as good as it will get.

I think the same. But why you reject the self-determination??? Why Armenians can't do it after all???

Edited December 21, 2005 by Egern.net

[SamvelT]

to ozzyoi : the problem I see in your responce is , when You say , that Genocide was organized by corrupt goverment and military ... Maybe so , but was carried by ordinary people (soldiers are ordinary people too , they were comming back to their families and so on...) . To me it means that an argument , that people in Turkey does not know about the Genocide is not usable nor solid . So as of today to prepare ( pay attention - not educate , but prepare ) public opinion in Turkey, should not take long . I can tell You how I feel when I hear that we should understand somebody's position or that people on the other side of argument does not know ( uneducated... kind of ) . I will be open for conversation to anybody who is truthfull to himself (that means intelligent and truthfull to me too) , I feel it , so no joker's are aloud . Otherwise look what all of us have . And finally about US , EU etc. Genocide was preplanned by them as a part (or the first signs) of Globalization . It went wrong direction 90 years ago , it goes wrong way now too . They (EU, US, Russia) were and are wrong also . That's why they should be allways be included in dialogue . Not to monitor but to participate in the solution . Not to take protectorate over either side but to guarantee and support peaceful coexistance of our nations . I've got some other route to our conversation , but next time ... and thank's for your reply .

[ozzyoi]

voter,

I agree with your analysis on the tc army. I understand the connection you are making with army + documents + genocide. This is something irrespective of what comes out, I just hope it comes out. I believe it is more important to simply know the truth.

The only point you need to understand about turks regarding cyprus is...whether it was the army or the gvt who organised it, nobody in tc cares. You will find that a very large majority of turks, if they had to face what they were facing in cyprus again, they would do it all the same again. I dont believe anyone has any regrets. Nothing mattered back then, and nothing matters now. It was only important that no more turks were being killed by hellenic greed. Politics will sort itself out in time. It is my opinion that kktc recognition and a federation of greek and turk cypriots is inevitable.

egern.net,

You cannot be a good citizen of any country and also have an agenda of self-determination. Why do you think it is any different for tc? Why do you think this doesnt apply to armenians?

You must decide, do you want to be a good or a bad citizen first. After you decide on this, the rest of your direction will follow more easily.

You cant tell me your happy to read my post about becoming tc citizens and being compensated. And then go on to tell 'why shoudnt they self-determine'? Citizenships come with conditions. Amongst these conditions is the protection of the state. How will you be a good citizen and divide the state?

I know many many armenians will disagree with me on what Im about to say but....I will be honest with you all. Firstly I must point out that nothing anyone can say or do can justify a genocide.

I beieve there were large numbers of ottoman armenians who were very very loyal citizens. I also believe that large numbers were not. Do any of you guys believe that the same romantic/contradictory way of thinking of self-determination whilst a citizen of another nation...did this infuence at all the tragic decisions made by the ottoman army leaders? Is egern.net line of thinking any different today?

samvelT,

You have misunderstood me. I didn't say the genocide was caused by corrupt politicians and army officers. The 'mess' I talk about is not relevant to the genocide. I speak more of domestic issues. You need to understand that the genocide is not a mess that most turks place high on the priority list on a day to day life. Bad welfare, general corruption, greed, financial gap between rich and poor, extreme ideologies, freedom of thought and speach etc etc. This is the mess I'm talking about.

I disaree with you about soldiers being seen as 'just ordinary people'. Soldiers are order takers. Not just tc, but in any country and throughout history this is the case. A simple soldier exists to carry out the orders of their commanding officers. They are not given the responsibility of making moral judgements and decisions. A good army requires discipline. Discipline is the carrying out of orders without fail to the best of your ability even if death is required. Responsibility must be placed on the order makers, not takers.

Also, I want you to understand something. I am not making excuses for anyone. Im not saying 'feel sorry for them for they dont know or dont understand' either. I am simply saying that this is the reality in tc. The status quo. Im not saying anything more than this.

So do you consider me thruthful or a joker?

I agree with western participation for the reasons you have outlined and they are correct and constructive. But how can you also not doubt them the minute they open their mouth to say anything. To me the eu and america is the equal gold medal winner for lies, double standards and hypocricy. It is one thing to have them contribute, but it is very difficult to respect anything they have to say. They have an arrogance that is not backed by their history. They like being on a moral high ground even though they are the kings of the gutter. This is why I dislike their participation. This is why I believe we must sort this out alone, because when we do it this way we will know its genuine when its done. There will be nobody to blame and point fingers. It will be pure from outside influences and motives. I dont care how long more it takes to achieve it this way, I just believe this is the way it should happen. And no Im not dreaming, there is sooooooooo much work to do to get there and Im aware of it. But I just don't believe the strategy that has been followed by both nations for the last 90 years is going to achieve the desired outcome. There must be a change in direction.

It has to move away from the 'you did it, no I didnt' mentality. Armenians have to learn this isnt working for them, it is working against them. Turks have to learn that its ok & very noble to admit ones wrongs for it will make you better and stronger. This is why I think this issue between our people cannot be solved via this method. We need to go back to the simple stuff. First we must decide if we want to be friends again and coexist peacefully like we know we can and have so in the past. If we can engrave this into our hearts, minds and souls and make this the primary objective we will have a better chance. We really need to rebuild bridges between us. Bridges between ordinary people for simple reasons. And make saying 'you did it, no i didnt' a mortal sin. hahaha, and this is my dreamworld you may say........

Thanks guys

Edited December 22, 2005 by ozzyoi

[Vladik]

voter,

I agree with your analysis on the tc army. I understand the connection you are making with army + documents + genocide. This is something irrespective of what comes out, I just hope it comes out. I believe it is more important to simply know the truth.

The only point you need to understand about turks regarding cyprus is...whether it was the army or the gvt who organised it, nobody in tc cares. You will find that a very large majority of turks, if they had to face what they were facing in cyprus again, they would do it all the same again. I dont believe anyone has any regrets. Nothing mattered back then, and nothing matters now. It was only important that no more turks were being killed by hellenic greed. Politics will sort itself out in time. It is my opinion that kktc recognition and a federation of greek and turk cypriots is inevitable.

egern.net,

You cannot be a good citizen of any country and also have an agenda of self-determination. Why do you think it is any different for tc? Why do you think this doesnt apply to armenians?

You must decide, do you want to be a good or a bad citizen first. After you decide on this, the rest of your direction will follow more easily.

You cant tell me your happy to read my post about becoming tc citizens and being compensated. And then go on to tell 'why shoudnt they self-determine'? Citizenships come with conditions. Amongst these conditions is the protection of the state. How will you be a good citizen and divide the state?

I know many many armenians will disagree with me on what Im about to say but....I will be honest with you all. Firstly I must point out that nothing anyone can say or do can justify a genocide.

I beieve there were large numbers of ottoman armenians who were very very loyal citizens. I also believe that large numbers were not. Do any of you guys believe that the same romantic/contradictory way of thinking of self-determination whilst a citizen of another nation...did this infuence at all the tragic decisions made by the ottoman army leaders? Is egern.net line of thinking any different today?

samvelT,

You have misunderstood me. I didn't say the genocide was caused by corrupt politicians and army officers. The 'mess' I talk about is not relevant to the genocide. I speak more of domestic issues. You need to understand that the genocide is not a mess that most turks place high on the priority list on a day to day life. Bad welfare, general corruption, greed, financial gap between rich and poor, extreme ideologies, freedom of thought and speach etc etc. This is the mess I'm talking about.

I disaree with you about soldiers being seen as 'just ordinary people'. Soldiers are order takers. Not just tc, but in any country and throughout history this is the case. A simple soldier exists to carry out the orders of their commanding officers. They are not given the responsibility of making moral judgements and decisions. A good army requires discipline. Discipline is the carrying out of orders without fail to the best of your ability even if death is required. Responsibility must be placed on the order makers, not takers.

Also, I want you to understand something. I am not making excuses for anyone. Im not saying 'feel sorry for them for they dont know or dont understand' either. I am simply saying that this is the reality in tc. The status quo. Im not saying anything more than this.

So do you consider me thruthful or a joker?

I agree with western participation for the reasons you have outlined and they are correct and constructive. But how can you also not doubt them the minute they open their mouth to say anything. To me the eu and america is the equal gold medal winner for lies, double standards and hypocricy. It is one thing to have them contribute, but it is very difficult to respect anything they have to say. They have an arrogance that is not backed by their history. They like being on a moral high ground even though they are the kings of the gutter. This is why I dislike their participation. This is why I believe we must sort this out alone, because when we do it this way we will know its genuine when its done. There will be nobody to blame and point fingers. It will be pure from outside influences and motives. I dont care how long more it takes to achieve it this way, I just believe this is the way it should happen. And no Im not dreaming, there is sooooooooo much work to do to get there and Im aware of it. But I just don't believe the strategy that has been followed by both nations for the last 90 years is going to achieve the desired outcome. There must be a change in direction.

It has to move away from the 'you did it, no I didnt' mentality. Armenians have to learn this isnt working for them, it is working against them. Turks have to learn that its ok & very noble to admit ones wrongs for it will make you better and stronger. This is why I think this issue between our people cannot be solved via this method. We need to go back to the simple stuff. First we must decide if we want to be friends again and coexist peacefully like we know we can and have so in the past. If we can engrave this into our hearts, minds and souls and make this the primary objective we will have a better chance. We really need to rebuild bridges between us. Bridges between ordinary people for simple reasons. And make saying 'you did it, no i didnt' a mortal sin. hahaha, and this is my dreamworld you may say........

Thanks guys

After all, I think Turks will not agree.

[SamvelT]

To ozzyoi : I'm sorry for late reply . First of all : You are not a "joker" . I wanted to clarify that before furter discussion . And I hope there is people in Turkey , would at least for 1% , think like You do . I have do one point . In your posts , you state about realities in Turkey . well believe it or not , as armenian , I know those realities even without visiting Turkey. You write , that something should be changed in approach of the issue of Genocide ( and there is a trick ) - from BOTH SIDES . What would You suggest armenians to change . How they (or we) can approach or view or feel about Genocide , if for 90 years we actually knew about it ... You see , it's like somebody just slept for 90 years and then woke up one morning without any memories of unpaid bills , and he wants the other side to come closer to his position ... Does it make any sence to You ? Not to me for sure ... I agree on a point , that we have to start at least serious talks , but only serious not propaganda type with TV cameras etc. Then You wrote about a citizenship (turkish) for armenians . How about armenian sitizenship for turks ? Well , You see at the time , when Ottoman empire was breaking apart ( I mean Albania , Romania , Serbia etc. etc. ) , it was OK kind of for them to get away , but NOT OK for Armenia ... And I guess You know why : not to be cutted of from other turkic speaking states oreven not states THEN , but etnicities . And I also think , not for a cultural expansion , but more for a physical one... even agriement of Kars between Turkey and Soviet Russia points on that in the issue of Karabagh and Nachichevan ... I do not think armenians then and now have any other choice to SURVIVE as a nation , without beeing protected by someone from outside . Armenia should have securities that will constitute their excistance for many years (read centuries) to come from their opponents in order to change their (and my also) point of view of the situation . Plus independent access to sea (any) . Those are not just details but , kind of introduction to MY side of realities . At the end , I hope , I was not boaring nor offensive , and would like to wish You and your family all the best in this Holiday season . I hope we will continue our dialogue and somebody from "rullers" of the World will read it and say or write "I think it is possible , they can do it " ( in reference to the post prior to mine ) . Best regards .

[Egern.net]

You cannot be a good citizen of any country and also have an agenda of self-determination. Why do you think it is any different for tc? Why do you think this doesnt apply to armenians? ...

Certainly not. Self-determination isn't war or conflict. It's international right.

We have an example of Quebec, which could be independent now, if the refferendum showed more than 50% result. People of Quebec were good citizens of Canada, they hadn't any conflict. But they wanted to create their new country. And they could create (refferendum had 49% result...).

The same can do Armenians, being good citizens of Turkey, they will be able to self-determinate.

[ozzyoi]

samvelT,

You dont need to explain to me all the reasons why armenians shouldnt change their approach and pressure. I understand this. However I dont believe the methods used till today is going to work. I'm aware that there are many armenian views on this topic too. Conditions need to be removed. Genocide recognition needs to be put on ice. Diplomatic and trade relations need to begin. Cultural / arts / sporting ties need to be made. The hatred and anger needs to die. Pride and stubborness needs to removed. The genocide issue needs to be an independant topic for turkish and armenian beurocrats, lawmakers and historians. It should not have any connection to anything else between the nations. Maybe my ideas sound simple and rosy, but this is what I believe needs to happen.

Armenian citizenships for turks? Sure, if they want to live in ROA.

What is ROA doing in order to secure or attract security for its existance?

Being right doesn't equal getting everything your way. You can still be right but find yourself alone or find yourself facing a dead end. It just doesnt guarantee happiness.

Im happy to talk further on this topic. I think it's a positive topic.

Egern.net,

The kurds have a huge population in tc. Now do you still like the chances of armenians?

Your self-determination is very different to that of quebec. You openely voice your dream of uniting with ROA. This is division! This is being a bad citizen.

When you become a citizen of a country, you take an oath. In the case of tc, you swear an allegiance to the protection of tc, its constitution and its borders. If you make this allegiance with a dream of self-determination or re-unification with another nation. This will make you a liar and a cheat. It's called treason. Treason can carry a very heavy punishment in tc.

Also you should know that any international laws regarding self-determination do not supercede national laws unless agreed to by the constitution. In this case it does not in tc.

You will find a brick wall with this theory of self-determination in tc no matter which way you go. It's your decision whether you want to pursue it any further. For me it's getting a bit old.

Happy and safe xmas to all the christian brethren.

[voter]

ozzy

Sure, the people in turkey don't care so much what's goverment do, they just accept it and agree with it - this was so and hope will not be such after last elections.

When people in turkey will fill, that they could decide, what must go on and not some persons under third land influence, then people will care about all doings under the name of turkish republic.

In this case one will see, that it is in interests of people in turkey to have many nationalities as citizens of turkey and not only a one under control of "turkschip", whom one could easy manipulate, as of absence of differences...

[SamvelT]

To ozzyoi : Well , You see the issue from turkish point of view . I'm not asking to see it from armenian side , but let's say ... universal . I agree about a dialogue and sport events , maybe arts and theatre would be a good idea too . How about open disscussion on TV , something like tele - bridge between students of the high schools , for the beginning (like one between US and Soviet Union in 1980-s) . Not sensored , not audited by anybody , and televised all over the both countries . Good idea isn't it . But I think turkish side is just not ready . Too complicated constitution . My personal opinion is that turks are ready for dialogue morally , but not physicaly . On the other side armenians more ready physicaly , but morally we are hurt by anything less than whole Truth . Yes we are on the edge or in the corner or alone , and we are not see happiness as a nation from somebody's view point . Our happines is in filling ourselves right ( victims ) , but not wrong (predators) . This is the highest standart for us . You see , I'm trying to make You understand (and I think You do ) , that it's not that both of our sides do not want to talk , but to talk what about . I kind of think , that we (armenians, or maybe just me - armenian ) do not follow in how many dimensions turks are talking , i.e. they start from sircumstances or politics around the issue of Genocide ( one dimension) , then jump (not smoothly ) to more material world (second dimension ) , then try to accuse the other side (third dimension) and go there and back , whenever they feel that they actualy loosing in either of those dimensions . That's why I think it's nessesary for the beginning to standartise the topics of discussion and scedule of it . That's what I call universal view of the Issue , regardless of national mentalitet . I bet both sides will discover something new for temselves . Yes at the end I should admit , a dialogue is important , is nessesary and armenians will benefit from it more than turks , but benefit is not a Victory ( for intelligent opponents of course ) . And turks will benefit from dialogue not much less ,than armenians if they will try to find what kind of benefit they want for themselves (in other words : what is more important for them ) . Thank's again for your reply . Happy New Year .