Das osmanische Reich mit offenen Karten

[voter]

Часть первая

(коментарии на немецком)

http://www.arte-tv.com/de/GALLERIE_20PHOTO...troduction.html

(коментарии на французском)

http://www.arte-tv.com/fr/GALLERIE_20PHOTO...troduction.html

Часть вторая

(комментарии на нецком)

http://www.arte-tv.com/de/GALLERIE_20PHOTO...conclusion.html

(коментарии на французском)

http://www.arte-tv.com/fr/GALLERIE_20PHOTO...conclusion.html

[voter]

Там есть оттенок, что честно незнал, византия попрсила осман помчь ему в борьбе с северными народами - Хунами...

Фактический впустили сам тех, кого так долго всем европейским христиански миром пытались потом выдворить - типично по Европейский...

[Unregistered - M]

Спасибо Вотер, но поменяй пожалуйста название темы. Или "Das osmanische Reich", или "Osmanisches Reich".

[MiG-35]

Там есть оттенок, что честно незнал, византия попрсила осман помчь ему в борьбе с северными народами - Хунами...

Фактический впустили сам тех, кого так долго всем европейским христиански миром пытались потом выдворить - типично по Европейский...

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Кстати, в истории Византии были даже еще более безумные шаги. Последний период и агония царства Багратидов в Армении сопровождались попытками Византии урвать из Армении все новые куски/княжества и натравливанием тюркских отрядов на Армению Византией… Сейчас греки сами удивляються, как такое могло вообще иметь место…

[voter]

Спасибо Вотер, но поменяй пожалуйста название темы. Или "Das osmanische Reich", или "Osmanisches Reich".

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Нелюблю немецкие артикли - признак недоделанности и молодости языка, но ради корректности добавил.

[voter]

Кстати, в истории Византии были даже еще более безумные шаги. Последний период и агония царства Багратидов в Армении сопровождались попытками Византии урвать из Армении все новые куски/княжества и натравливанием тюркских отрядов на Армению Византией… Сейчас греки сами удивляються, как такое могло вообще иметь место…

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Это слабость перед сильным - желание заиметь сильного молодого союзника, перед которым неможет устоять ниодин дряхлый умирающий и теряющий власть.

Вот и закрывают глаза за неимеин лудшего продлевателя своей власти, на все демонные деяния тех, чьими кровавыми руками пробуют продлить власть.

Если удивляються, значит всё ещё неосознают или нехотят осознать эту простую реалию жизни существующую и даже процветающую по сей день.

Национальный идентите и сознание через который неимеет право перешагнуть ниодин король и правитель, у народов развилось лиш недавно, вся история человечества этого ценности рима - точнее одна ценность ВЛАСТЬ, независимо от идей и интересов тех, кем правят.

Всегда рим был аморфной безнациональной империей и все её последователи лиш пробовали повторить то же самое вполть до французской революции, поставившей за однову народные интересы а не интересы империи....

[Unregistered - M]

Нелюблю немецкие артикли - признак недоделанности и молодости языка, но ради корректности добавил.

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Еще если можно второе слово с маленькой буквы. и "offenen"

(потом можешь удалить эти посты, как оффтоп)

[MiG-35]

By the way, another good map site with timeline is euratlas.com.

Check these:

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

http://www.euratlas.com/time2.htm

[MiG-35]

And check this page in which Arcakh and Azatagrvac Tarackner are shown in Armenia!

http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/countries.htm

[Phrygian]

Кстати, в истории Византии были даже еще более безумные шаги. Последний период и агония царства Багратидов в Армении сопровождались попытками Византии урвать из Армении все новые куски/княжества и натравливанием тюркских отрядов на Армению Византией… Сейчас греки сами удивляються, как такое могло вообще иметь место…

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A prichem tut Greki?

The Empire was Greco-Armenian.

The Empire was ruled by Armenians in 1045, when Ani was taken. Contemporary chronicles record that during the Battle of Ani the soldiers on both Roman and Bagratid sides were Armenian. The overwhelming majority of the generals and strategs were Armenians. Even after the fall of Ani. Hell one of the main Armenian generals, Philaretus Brachamus was the first one to create an Armenian principality from Cilicia to Edessa. Oshin and Tatoul were also Roman generals. It was more like a civil war. Besides, the blame cannot lay on the Empire alone. As by the time Seljuks advanced further, all Armenian fedual states were fighting eachother already.

[MiG-35]

Well, yes, we too carry our portion of responsibility for the incorrect actions of the Empire. But the role of the Greeks was much more important, and the definition "Empire was Greco-Armenian" is not very accurate, I am afraid...

[Phrygian]

Well, yes, we  too carry our portion of responsibility for the incorrect actions of the Empire. But the role of the Greeks was much more important, and the definition "Empire was Greco-Armenian" is not very accurate, I am afraid...

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What is the accurate definition? The person that Hellenized the Roman Empire and made Greek the official language because it was the lingua franca was Armenian. Heraclius, the son of the Armenian Exarch of Africa. Open Brittanica and read. Second of all, what Greeks? There were no such people known as Greeks! Greek speaking people of the empire called themselves Romanoi (Romans), they were of many backgrounds.

"For almost five hundred years, the Armenians played an important role in the political, military and administrative life of the Byzantine empire... During the early part of this period, in the 7th and 8th centuries, when the empire was struggling for its very existence, they helped a good deal in fighting its enemies. But their role was even more important in the 9th and 10th centuries when, as soldiers, administrators and emperors, they dominated the social, military and political life of the empire, whose greatness in largely due to them. Indeed, their role was so important in this period that these two centuries of the Byzantine empire might well be called Greco-Armenian: "Greco" because, as always, their civilization was Greek, "Armenian" because most of the people who directed the empire's destiny and provided most of the forces to defend it were either Armenians or men of Armenian origin". (The Armenians in the Byzantine Empire, p. 57). Peter Charanis, Byzantine scholar

[MiG-35]

The role and influence of the Armenians inside the Empire can be discussed, but whatever that Armenian influence be, the Empire played a negative role in the last centuries of Bagratuni Armenia.

The fact that the Byzantine Empire at that times had considerable Armenian population, and that many of its rulers and generals were Armenians does not make the situation simpler for us…

[Phrygian]

The role and influence of the Armenians inside the Empire can be discussed, but whatever that Armenian influence be, the Empire played a negative role in the last centuries of Bagratuni Armenia.

But who made Bagratuni Armenia the sole representative of Armenians? It was just another Armenian Kingdom among many others, a weak one at that. Unlike every other Armenian house, they chose to succumb to Arab rule. Bagratunis were by far not the best we had. I have much more respect for the Kingdom of Vaspurakan.

The fact that the Byzantine Empire at that times had considerable Armenian population, and that many of its rulers and generals were Armenians does not make the situation simpler for us…

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It always had a considerable Armenian population. Lesser Armenia never ceased to be a part of it until Manzikert. It was a haven for Chalcedonian Armenians as well as regular loyalists. The Armenian presence simply increased from the time of Justinian until its demise.

In conclusion, I take credit for Byzantium just as much as any other Armenian Kingdom, Principality or Feudal state. I have no bias towards, Chalcedonians, non-Chalcedonians or even Paulikians. To me they were all Armenian.

[MiG-35]

The role played by Armenians in the Byzantine Empire is about the same as the role of Ukrainians in Russian Empire. Whatever the role of Ukrainians in Russia be, Russia has never been a Ukrainian state.

So the definition Greco-Armenian Empire is not accurate, and the Greeks themselves will get crazy if you tell them their Byzantine Empire may be called Greco-Armenian. In most texts written on the Byzantine history the word “Armenian” simply is not present… Try to discuss this with the Greek and see what they will answer…

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As to Chalcedonian Armenians, non-Chalcedonian Armenians or whatever other Armenians… I, too, equally respect and love all of them.

[Phrygian]

The role played by Armenians in the Byzantine Empire is about the same as the role of Ukrainians in Russian Empire. Whatever the role of Ukrainians in Russia be, Russia has never been a Ukrainian state.

The role played by Greeks in the emire is by no means more significant, au contraire, for several centuries the Armenian role was greater. Granted, it was neither Greek or Armenian by name, it was Roman. Furthermore, though some referred to Byzantines as Greeks it was in the same vein as calling Germans Latins. Merely a religious designation.

Ukrainian is a very modern concept. They are virtually the same people. Any Ukrainian can be a Russian and vice versa, the differneces are subjective.

So the definition Greco-Armenian Empire is not accurate, and the Greeks themselves will get crazy if you tell them their Byzantine Empire may be called Greco-Armenian. In most texts written on the Byzantine history the word “Armenian” simply is not present… Try to discuss this with the Greek and see what they will answer…

I will send you a big fat cheque if you find me a book about the Eastern Roman Empire without the word Armenian in it.

I have discussed this with many Greeks, several of my exes were Greek and many of my friends are Greek. They seem to know more about Armenians of Byzantium than the average Armenian.

As to Chalcedonian Armenians, non-Chalcedonian Armenians or whatever other Armenians… I, too, equally respect and love all of them.

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Amen to that. As long as they're not jewish or muslim.

[MiG-35]

Phrygian, let’s do an experiment: please open a topic about this point in the forum at http://greek.ru/ru/forum/ , and let’s see what the Greeks are telling. I guess they gonna hate you if you try to define the role of Armenians in Byzantine Empire to be equal or even greater than the role of Greeks…

I will send you a big fat cheque if you find me a book about the Eastern Roman Empire without the word Armenian in it.

Oops… We had a misunderstanding: I didn’t mean that the word “Armenian” is not present in the books in general (hard to believe in this indeed). I did mean that the formula “Greco-Armenian Empire” (or another definition of the Empire with the word “Armenian” in it) can hardly be found… If you find more than 10 books with such definition I will send you a really fat cheque…

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One useful point I would like to stress in your posts is that we Armenians often consider the medieval Armenia to be the combination of Bagratuni Armenia + Arcruni Armenia only without mentioning the western part of Armenia: the Byzantine Armenia. The Byzantine Armenia need be considered the third (and by far not the smallest part) of medieval Armenia.

P.S. Don’t forget the thing with experiment!

[Phrygian]

Phrygian, let’s do an experiment: please open a topic about this point in the forum at http://greek.ru/ru/forum/ , and let’s see what the Greeks are telling. I guess they gonna hate you if you try to define the role of Armenians in Byzantine Empire to be equal or even greater than the role of Greeks…

First of all, those are not real Greeks in the forum you linked to. Most Pontic Greeks are just fakes and Hellenes do not consider them Greeks. They are mixed with Caucasus natives and turks and Hellenes reject them. Their input is therefore irrelevant.

Oops… We had a misunderstanding: I didn’t mean that the word “Armenian” is not present in the books in general (hard to believe in this indeed). I did mean that the formula “Greco-Armenian Empire” (or another definition of the Empire with the word “Armenian” in it) can hardly be found… If you find more than 10 books with such definition I will send you a really fat cheque…

Fine, I'll get you a list of books by neutral Western scholars.

In fact, more will agree on that than any absurd notion of Urartians being Armenian or Minoans being Greek. I'll compile a list asap in time convenient this week.

Btw the most important book ever written on the history of the Empire is The History Of The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. That book clearly established the fact that Eastern Romans and Greeks are two very different things. There was no Greek national consciesnous until the fall of Constantinople. No citizen called themselves a Greek or a Hellene.

One useful point I would like to stress in your posts is that we Armenians often consider the medieval Armenia to be the combination of Bagratuni Armenia + Arcruni Armenia only without mentioning the western part of Armenia: the Byzantine Armenia. The Byzantine Armenia need be considered the third (and by far not the smallest part) of medieval Armenia.

That's a step forward.

P.S. Don’t forget the thing with experiment!

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I have already done this. In a Greek neo-Nazi forum. You will be surprised on how much we agreed. I'll send you a transcript with a link as well.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Phrygian

[MiG-35]

Fine, I'll get you a list of books by neutral Western scholars.

Better please do the following: the information about Armenian Role in Byzantine Empire deserves some more attention. So when you collect the data, please don’t just paste here the list of books (the users will hardly go to find those books). Instead, post fragments or photocopies of relevant parts with the coolest phrases highlighted (in which the authors call the Empire Greco-Armenian). Also post that as a new separate topic with a cool title.

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Can you pass me the links to that neo Nazi topics with Armenian role considered?

I see that you have had a series of a very knowledgeable Greek girlfriends…