Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Hi,i am a Turkish freedomist democratic socialist.Also i am an internationalist.I want to talk about armenian-turkish event with you.If you listen me without prejudice,we can reach to a point.Now lets get back to the 1915. Ottaman Empire was in WW1.And Armenians,who are called until that date as "brothers", said that they would battle with Turks against Russia,england..And they joined ottoman army.They took rifles,uniforms from Ottoman Army and but they didnt use them to fight the common enemy,they used them to destroy unarmed Turkish Villages to found Armenian Country.They killed children,women and old men.Turkish soldiers entrust armenians to East Side of country..But they did massacares against Turks and Kurds.This is one side of coin.Now lets look at the other side of coin. This is an official turkisch propaganda and I leave it only to allow other forum members see, with which "versions" they could confront, if will try to discuss this topic with turks born and grown in Turkey - voter İttihat ve Terakki Party,which had racist policies,had a policy that stated anatolia should be only Turk's Motherland..(Without a doubt,The head of This party Enver Pasa and Talat pasa were racist.) And they found a reason to succeed this plan.Some Armenians(Not many of them) killed some Turks,be unfaithfull and now they should gone,he thought.(For a racist,this is a normal idea.)As you know,they enacted "Techir".And with this law,armenians would be sent to syria.But they a secret plan.They wanted to be sure that armenians wouldnt come back.And they ordered Teskilat-i Mahsusa(An agency like Fbi,Cia) to organize revenge attacks against Armenians.They released mad men,criminal men from jail;and organized them(Turkish and Kurdish Criminals) as guerillas to kill armenians.Without a doubt,this was a massacre too. Armenians lost more people that Turks lost.But if there is one who lost, it is the humanity.And as a result,i think it is a two-sided massacre.Today,i am condemning Enver and Talat Pasa,also that criminals,and agency soldiers.But also i am condemning Armenians,who burned Turkish villages. What i want to say is; as a Turk i can face the history.And i can condemn all that monsters.But you should realize of your :censored: by voter movements - warning because of insulting .Most Of Armenians,expect living in Turkiye,say that %90 percent of Turks are barbarian,monsters or evils.This is racism,this is the way to create new massacres.We are not monsters.If we were, we couldnt live peacefully with Armenians for centuries.You can generalize things.As Nietzche say,"All generalizations are false,like this one." As a result,for me it is not important being an armenian or a turk or anthing else..What important is being human.And what i want to do is,destroying the walls between you and us.For these,i say lets condemn this two-sided massacres,give peace to that souls and forget our nationalist and racist policies. Brootherhood of Nations,Cannot be obstructed... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Essence, of course you try to jystify you'r country... You wrote that armenian's first attacked kurd's and turk's... but this words are falsehood! Armenian people tryed to reinute their country, to bring freedom to their houses... Turks tortured armenian nation for many years, and then the day came, when armenian's decided to stand up and defence themselves... if you want, read a book about west Armenian problem in 19-20 centuries.... it will be a very long discussion... if you know russian language it will make our intercourse much easier... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Essenc, let's go step by step and don't pile up everything. You present your point of view about how armenian citizens of ottoman empire fight during WW1, which is nothing else than a groundless propaganda, because there are a lot of facts proving, that Enver officially tender a thanks to armenian nation for his sons honestly fighting for their country, which was at that time a Turkey... About Armenian movement, you have insulted us calling it foolish and this is a reason to warn you and increase your rating. Please say more concret about which movement you speak - recognition of genocide, then I will suggest you to read first the following topic http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=1436 If you are "sad" from Armenian movement of independancy and call it stupid, then it is hopeless to discuss with you anything, as of you do not respect a right of others to live independantly and FREE. About Kurds read first this http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=1099 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 I'll add few words in russian На самом деле турки пытаются сейчас оправдаться... как-будто никакого геноцида не было и в помине... ЧУШЬ! Потомки армян никогда не забудут те варварства, которые учиняли турки в конце 19 и начале 20 века... армяне были христиане, и это была единственная нация, которая осталась на востоке, из-за которой турция могла исчезнуть как государство... всю дорогу вы мучали армянский народ...сначала вы пытались задушить его экономически, путём непомерных налогов, погромов, бесрпеделов и так далее! Вы нашли удобных палачей, курдов и черкессов, которые совершали ваши приказания... вы терзали наш армянский народ на продолджении длительного времени! Если вы говорите что гнеоцида не было, и что всё это выдумка, то откуда могло появиться столько примеров и описаний в литературе... и не только... Можно писать ещё очень долго, но скажу одно - что о примирении с турцией не может быть и слова! Вы уничтожили 2 миллиона армян! Вы забрали нашу землю, всю дорогу, вы и курды, как блохи, сначала высасывали всю жизненную силу армян, забирали продукт его труда, а затем убивали... вы уводили наших женщин, из-за чего нация обезабразилась внешне... Армении 82 000 лет! И это доказано учёными! И если до сих пор эта нация не вымерла, значит не вымрет ещё долго! Есть пословица - живи с собакой в дружбе, но держи палку наготове...мне очень жаль, что наши предки не держали эту палку нагтове! Наши предки привыкли откупаться золотом, спасая свои жизни! Но теперь новое поколение, которое будет возвращать своё ценой крови и жертв! Мы исправим ошибку наших предков! И заявляю открыто - НАСТАНЕТ ТОТ ДЕНЬ КОГДА МЫ ВЕРНЁМ ВСЁ ПОТЕРЯННОЕ РАННЕЕ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Essence, of course you try to jystify you'r country. This Turkish Goverment or State is not mine.It is only a capitalist nation and a puppet of America-Israel.And it serves only imperialism.Not to my people or humanity. You wrote that armenian's first attacked kurd's and turk's... but this words are falsehood! Armenian people tryed to reinute their country, to bring freedom to their houses... Turks tortured armenian nation for many years, and then the day came, when armenian's decided to stand up and defence themselves... Nope,as i investigated and talked with that term armenian and turks..They say that they were living peacefully.Of course they had some difficulties.But especially after Tanzimat and Islahat Fermans,their conditions got better and better.They wanted to found a new nation because of nationalism.And as u know ottoman empire was not a nation based empire..Too Many Armenians and Greeks or other ones had offical jobs in state.Look i am not a fan of Ottomans...But please try to look some points objectively..There can be no reason for killing innocent people,burning and destroying villages..For both Turks and Armenians..We could be living peacfully today, if we and you didnt make mistake.But now we should accept our history and try to destroy wall between nations.With Armenian Diaspora's nationalist and racist policies(also they educated all people samely,from one prototype) or with this Nationalist Capitalist Turkish Goverment.We,the Armenian an Turkish People,should destroy the wall,than states will have to give up their imperialist policies. if you want, read a book about west Armenian problem in 19-20 centuries... I read many , and just finished one..The author was George Jerjian.. This is an official turkisch propaganda and I leave it only to allow other forum members see, with which "versions" they could confront, if will try to discuss this topic with turks born and grown in Turkey - voter When you stop naming truths as propoganda,than we can succeed in making peace. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) If you are "sad" from Armenian movement of independancy and call it stupid, then it is hopeless to discuss with you anything, as of you do not respect a right of others to live independantly and FREE. I didnt support nationalist Armenian Nationalist movement of independancy.Because it wouldnt be different from Ittahat and Terrakki goverment style.We can prove this with Armenian Revenge Army in Southern Eastern Turkeey,after invasion of french. And the way of that was completly false.How can u defend a way like that killing,destroying,burning... etc. If that was a revoulationist move, i could consider it,but if it wasnt and if it was successfull,there would be one more nationalist country.And i think we can still live togetherly under a country that named Anatolian Republic.Humanism and internationalism based freedomist democrat country... Edited August 31, 2005 by Essence Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Essense, how can't u understand? For example, if armenians destroyed 2\3 part of your nation and took away 9/10 part of terrytorry of your country, whot would you say than? There can be no word about peace! Even if armenia will recieve back it's terrytorries, it will be imposible to forgive turks! They brought too much sorrow to our nation... Our lands, our people, our freedom, and many other things! And all this Turks have destroyed... there is no way to peace now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 NO WAY! WE WILL REUNITE OUR COUNTRY - ARMENIA!!!! THERE will not be place for TURKS! There is no reason to forgive Turks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 vagan, What you are talking about is Extreme - Nationalism and racism..As i am against Turkish Nationalist or Patriots,i will be against Armenian Nationalists or Patriots.. As a neo-communist, i want a world without races,with one language and many cultures.The capitalism and nationalism are the biggest obstacles..And i will fight against them..As i am saying we can live under a nation,that nation will be both Turks,Kurds,Armenians,Greeks,Whole The humanity...I think there will be some Armenian friends who can understand me.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 I didnt support nationalist Armenian Nationalist movement of independancy.Because it wouldnt be different from Ittahat and Terrakki goverment style.We can prove this with Armenian Revenge Army in Southern Eastern Turkeey,after invasion of french. And the way of that was completly false.How can u defend a way like that killing,destroying,burning... etc. If that was a revoulationist move, i could consider it,but if it wasnt and if it was successfull,there would be one more nationalist country.And i think we can still live togetherly under a country that named Anatolian Republic.Humanism and internationalism based freedomist democrat country... ← If you will follow a history of osman empire, you will see, that Genocide of Armenians, Greeks, Aramians and other minorities in 20th century, organized from Turkisch goverment was nothing else than a last tries to keep the empire. The fabrications like - armenians or greeks were themselfs guilty, as of they start to build independancy, make impossible a coexistance of turks thinking like you and armenians in same country, as of it shows that turks like you do not respect a right of others leave a common house and build their own one. So as I was afraiding, you do not respect a right of others to leave INDEPENDANTLY... Very typical and know principal called imperialism with turkisch accent, as of you are ready to kill even your brother and sister, if he/she will decide to leave the "fathers house" and do what he/she want and live with whom he/she want and not with the one, that family desided. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JazzVaz Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 NO WAY! WE WILL REUNITE OUR COUNTRY - ARMENIA!!!! THERE will not be place for TURKS! There is no reason to forgive Turks! ← No need to scream so loud. Obviously no forgiveness without recognition of Genocide and apologies from Turk gov. (even that they are not directly responsible for all what happened) But Pease is still possible. Pease simply means not to be in a war. We have no war presently with Turkey, so we do have a peace. One way or the other, you can not change history and there is no were to run. Once Turkish gov. will recognise committed crimes against humanity, then perhaps I could look on a Turk and say: I will never forget what happened, and nor my children will, but since you admit and apologise, you are forgiven. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 I'm not a nacionalist, but I'm patriot, and I'm communist... but! You think this way because your country hadn't such bad expirience as Armenia had... if Armenia now had all terrytorries that we had earlier, Armenia would be now very rich country, as Saudi Arabia.... because part of Iraq was before our land...and as we know Iraq has oil... But this is not the reason, I showed you a simple example... How do you think, if y had many children, and a big house, and if you was a rich person, and one day some barbarian came to you, took away all your riches, and if he destroyed your house, if you had seen all your children suffering and dying, and your wife disgraced... how would fell in that case? Of course you will hate those barbarians... it is another example, now I want to hear your answer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 vagan, What you are talking about is Extreme - Nationalism and racism..As i am against Turkish Nationalist or Patriots,i will be against Armenian Nationalists or Patriots.. As a neo-communist, i want a world without races,with one language and many cultures.The capitalism and nationalism are the biggest obstacles..And i will fight against them..As i am saying we can live under a nation,that nation will be both Turks,Kurds,Armenians,Greeks,Whole The humanity...I think there will be some Armenian friends who can understand me.. ← Oho, NEO-COMMUNISM - sounds like a new under which are trying to hide the ones who wants to build a big Turan, look at this Essence http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=17958 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 So as I was afraiding, you do not respect a right of others to leave INDEPENDANTLY... Very typical and know principal called imperialism. Nope,if i didnt respect,i wouldnt support Kurd's Movement.Right? But now,i dont support Pkk or Kongra-Gel..Because they became nationalist and racist terrorists..as Armenians.. As i said before,i would support an Armenian Internationalist socialist country.But in 1915,it was a nationalist,imperialist move not a freedomist or anti-imperialist move. Very typical and know principal called imperialism with turkisch accent, as of you are ready to kill even your brother and sister, if she will deside to leave a house and do what he/she want and live with whom he/she want and not with the one, that family desided. Really,is this a story that your parent's scary TURK stories?This is demagogy..And this doesnt make any sense..Just a try to humiliate a nation..And i think none of nations should be humiliated.. If you will follow a history of osman empire, you will see, that Genocide of Armenians, Greeks, Aramians and other minorities in 20th century, organized from Turkisch goverment was nothing else than a last tries to keep the empire. Yeah,you are right.But not genocides,massacres.But this is not only Turk's history.This is humanity's dark history. The fabrications like - armenians or greeks were themselfs guilty, as of they start to build independancy, make impossible a coexistance of turks thinking like you and armenians in same country, as of it shows that turks like you do not respect a right of others leave a common house and build their own one. It is not impossible.Ask an Armenian or Greek in Istanbul,Turkey.i can give their msn to you.We are best friend.And they are really more open-minded and humanist. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 I see there is no result to talk with you... I wait for your answer for my last reply Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Oho, NEO-COMMUNISM - sounds like a new under which are trying to hide the ones who wants to build a big Turan, look at this Essence Man,Turanist are nationalist and racists.And i said several times before.i am against all of nationalism forms(racism,patriotism...) I dont feel like a Turk or from nother nation.What i feel is being human.How can i tell you with a way that u can understand..F.ck Turanists,f.ck turkish nationalists also armenian nationaslits,racists..Ok? I'm not a nacionalist, but I'm patriot, and I'm communist... but! You think this way because your country hadn't such bad expirience as Armenia had... if Armenia now had all terrytorries that we had earlier, Armenia would be now very rich country, as Saudi Arabia.... because part of Iraq was before our land...and as we know Iraq has oil... But this is not the reason, I showed you a simple example... How do you think, if y had many children, and a big house, and if you was a rich person, and one day some barbarian came to you, took away all your riches, and if he destroyed your house, if you had seen all your children suffering and dying, and your wife disgraced... how would fell in that case? Of course you will hate those barbarians... it is another example, now I want to hear your answer i wont answer these..But; 1.i am not a barbarian. 2.The past is past.if you think that places are still yours,than turkish nationalists will say that asia and middle east theirs too,or macedonia said the land on 3 continents is theirs. 3.A communist should be internationalist.But you are not..You are just stalinist..But i am trockist..And freedomist democrat socialist.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 How can you know am i internacionalist or not? Nd if you want to know, patriotism - is not form of nacionalitism! It is love to your native land! I didn't say that you'r barbarian... But don'w you want to answer my question in example? This is the way how turks treated us... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Patriotism is a form of nationalism.Nationalist socialists try to show nationalism more moderate,so they call it as patriotism.The end of patriotism way is again nationalism.Of course you love your mainland.As i do too.But for you Armenian People's and Turkish People's benefits should be equal priority,at equal value for you. And about your question; Firstly i would recognize truely that "barbarian"..and i would understand that is not a nation,a party,a organization... And Neither Armenians nor Turks were rich at 1915.And your economic situation wouldnt be much much much better than this. As Turkish Socialist,we say we can live under a socialist state that is laic from every nation.That is called Anatolian Socialist Republic.it wont based on nation or race or language or culture.Will be multi-nation,culture state..But this is against ur nationalist policies right?I am offering you to live under same house,as we used to till 1915.And that house was not only yours,also ours..As you know.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 We weren't rich because all our riches Turk's took away... I'll give you advise, read a book "Hent" - there is description about life of armenian people....you'll find many answers, when you'l finish reading this book Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shenyаtsi Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Ессенция, Before we'll lookd ahead of us, lets just turn our heads for a moment back.... You are stating that armenians started first during WWI and was a risk for your empire. Let's make one more step back to 19th century, back to the 1880... What risk was for turks from armenians back then. I do not know the hstory very well, and I will thank you for any help and answers you can provide... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Right..Every bad thing is accused by Turks..And Turks are monsters,evils,they come from hell....Pff ! if i find its turkish,i will read it..Btw maybe it is time for you to read Armenian Event from different views.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Essence Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 foolishness of nationalism and class wars as marx stated,shenyatsi..imperialist ottoman empire's last moves.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vagan-dzhan Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Essence, just read this book, and then I'll watch how you will talk then Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dashnaktsakan Posted September 1, 2005 Report Share Posted September 1, 2005 Turey should recognise their deeds against not just Armenian nation but overall humanity. Throughout centuries you've been a subject of hatred from your neighbours and that explains everything. There's only one path towards peaceful future - recognition of crimes done to Armenians as Genocide and return of lands. We have to be realistic. All of us can sit and dream about this and that but Armenian nation will never become a friend of a turk before these two are fulfiled. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted September 1, 2005 Report Share Posted September 1, 2005 Essence I assure you, that may be ex-citizens of Turkey and their childerens, who lived once there and forced to leave could be hate turks without any exceptions, e.g. vagan-dzan, but most of armenians just do not like tuks, like many jews do not like germans, even knowing, that germans accept their mistakes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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