Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

sure, but your actions exploit our job in turkey. that's why i expect altruism from you. if you continue on the same way, may be turkey will get democratic anyway, but more slowly. so decise what you want, permanency of status quo or improvement by some sacrife?

please help us to make us help you. for instance, advisor of armenian foreign minister said "we're ready to start negotiations without any prerequisites" when he visited turkey for hrant dink's funeral. did you lose something by that words? contrary to it, in turkish people got impressed by that offer.

i don't know any cases in history that a friendly attitude caused bad relations, do you know any?

among other things, for which meaning of it do you use muallim? in turkey it means teacher

Edited February 3, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[MiG-35]

I understand… but before you demand/suggest that we “fine-tune” our policy to maximally support the democrats of Turkey, you should first prove that the democrats in Turkey are a more or less CONSIDERABLE group, and that they have power to make Armenia’s life less complicated.

And until that proof, we HAVE to act not according your suggestion, but according to the situation created by the nationalist Turks.

Just a simple example to clear the point: the Turkish nationalists now actively support the railroad project Kars-Akhalkalak-Tbilisi-Baku, the main aim of which is to make Armenia’s isolation even worst. Can the Turkish democrats do something against that? If yes, fine! But if NOT, then we have nothing lese to do but to try to make that project impossible by lobbying against that in Western parliaments… EVEN THOUG we understand that that is not very good for the Turkish democrats…

[Kars]

among other things, for which meaning of it do you use muallim? in turkey it means teacher

Azeris use it as an honorary form to address a person.

[MiG-35]

Azeris use it as an honorary form to address a person.

Just like the turkish "efendi"...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

you call "jan" to each other, it's some kind of it too then. please don't use muallim for me, if you have to say something you can call comrade

so mig-35, i get used to make quotations, this one is from sepultura : "i say, we're growing everyday, getting stronger in every way, i'll take you to a place where we shall find our roots bloody roots"

joking apart, of course we cannot make the government do everything we want, and the dreary thing is democrat people see some other problems are more important than the armenian question. as i said before in the short-term it's not possible for turkey to change the policies but after this murder everyone understood that something is seriously wrong and should be changed immidiately. blockade, isolation and other such policies will resume most probably, but some slight changes will happen. in the long-term i believe that turkey's armenia policies will go ahead in a positive way. if AKP chooses its own president in this spring kemalists will lose a very important place in turkish politics and tey will have disadvantage in the elections in this winter as a domino effect. a democratic government for more 5 years will be very enchanting for foreign policies.

and certainly you should fight against the isolation of your country, i can't say that give up lobbying i just say don't try to enforce turkey to make changes in its domestic policy, it causes backfire and it makes turkey more agressive.

[SamvelT]

Well You see , dear fraternity for eternity ... You are asking armenians to say just what turks are willing to hear ... In some ways ... If armenians see something in internal affairs or international affairs of Turkey , that they (us, me or we ) disagree with , we will be telling that ... Armenians can not afford to say half - truth or just portion of it . That is making a lot of people around us angry - "we do not take prisoners" , it's an expressions often used to describe armenians in a matter of saying all straight forward . Believe me , the way is hard , but this is only the way we can even imagine . The compromise comes just about details , but after we see real truthful opponent , who is not playing politics ( doesn't want to lie and go around ) with us . This is in Armenia-Turkey relations said openly , and with the rest of the World allways meant ... It is the hardest way for us , but in achieving the final Truth it is the best way ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

no i don't ask you to say what turks willing to hear. i am asking you not to say what turks aren't willing to hear. just joking

anyway it's easy to see that you are fond of playing one-side game and finding a way to reduce turkey to submission in any case. you say that it's the hardest way, sorry my friend but it's the most impossible way to get result.

well, good luck then

let me ask you something then; in what kind of a situation may you have to change your policies? or this way is your eternal policy?

[SamvelT]

You see , fraternity ... Again just imagine us and turks from different sides ... How You would react . It's not our policy (or mine ) , it's a live we lived for so long as a victims of the greatest unjust ... Those aree not words motivated by some movies or anything like that ... It's in the blood for so long ... Our greatest mistake for many centuries was , that we tried to match up worlds opinion and behavior in a ways to make a deals and accept the viewpoint of everyone around us , but our own ... Well , as You see it doesn't work . Now , when we started talking about checks and balances in a more serious way , more directed to the point , we hear that we have to understand the situation etc. etc. Believe me , nobody in the world wants to hear what we say , not just turks . Their lives are establishet under common conditions and nobody wants to be bottered . And fortunately for us , nobody can make another genocide now . That's why the issue should be solved once and forewer and in favor of armenians this time . The time is lost by other side ( it's not just Turkey , but GB , read British Petroleum , USA , Russia etc. etc. ) . We struggled enough and if not enough , we do not feel that pain anymore , so we are ready to struggle more . I'm not pessimist nor optimist . The life s so unpredictable , that I can't bet neither way . So good luck is really to both sides , especially to Turkey , to understand this - it's not personal , it's universal , the Truth , and it's in Turkey's interests as much as in ours to clean up all mess to the last piece , to move forward . I hope that it wasn't offensive nor cinic . Hope to hear from You or the rest of the guys in this discussion . Stay in touch ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

ok samvelt i started to get the point by your side. you say noone wants to hear what you say. do you think that the reason may be the way you say?

in turkey there's a nice sarcastic saying: "making turkish propaganda to turks". sometimes i feel that you do it in your side too. i mean, armenian propaganda to armenians. for example the movie ararat was a product of a good idea, but it couldn't find the limits of conscience and cant, in my humble opinion. the movie inside the movie could have been an excellent access to tell the deep motive of the genocide but it just told some tragic extreme events to make the armenians, who have been suffering from genocide, cry. you should revise the way to make armenian propaganda to other people, my friend.

[Kars]

Fraternity.

Enough is enough, really. You are becoming somewhat annoying.

Let’s face it: you are a communist.

Therefore, you represent a very tiny minority in Turkey. Your voice in Turkish politics equals zero. Agreed?

Agreed!

[Kars]

We are having problems dealing with our own home-grown commies, all we needed was a Turkish commie!

[SamvelT]

ok samvelt i started to get the point by your side. you say noone wants to hear what you say. do you think that the reason may be the way you say?

in turkey there's a nice sarcastic saying: "making turkish propaganda to turks". sometimes i feel that you do it in your side too. i mean, armenian propaganda to armenians. for example the movie ararat was a product of a good idea, but it couldn't find the limits of conscience and cant, in my humble opinion. the movie inside the movie could have been an excellent access to tell the deep motive of the genocide but it just told some tragic extreme events to make the armenians, who have been suffering from genocide, cry. you should revise the way to make armenian propaganda to other people, my friend.

No , I don't think You understood me . I.e. if this is propaganda by armenians to armenians , so it is 0 dollars ( or choose the currency ) paid propaganda ... In other words this propaganda does not need any marketing or advertisement , it felt on own skin all troughout the last 92 years . And it's not us , we don't invest no money and no effort to advertise it . It's the rest of Humanity feels their own second voice or having that ghost of injustice . We don't even have to remind them about the genocide . All what we have to do and all what in fact we do is to say - WE ARE ARMENIANS ... About Taner Akcham do , yes at least I know . Also I have heard him speaking about genocide and I have learned of him and his book here on Hayastan forum . He is one that turks should be proud of . And really I don't care if he is communist or capitalist , he his Honest Man and I do respect that . Not because he showed to me ( in his book ) why turks hated ( or hate? ) armenians , but that the heatress exsist ... There is or were such a feelinds ... He is talking on universal language of humankind and I see that and respect that . What about the movie , it was shot for , kind of internal afairs most likely , to keep us up in our faith . And whoever saw it - thank's to them , they are better understanding our point of view ...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

Fraternity.

Enough is enough, really. You are becoming somewhat annoying.

Let’s face it: you are a communist.

Therefore, you represent a very tiny minority in Turkey. Your voice in Turkish politics equals zero. Agreed?

Agreed!

how encouraging you are to make people have sympathy for you.

if i'm disturbing you, ok this is my last post. but i get very sad when i realized you never cared about what i said. first, i am not a communist. i am an anarchist. that's why i represent a minority in turkey. communists' (oh sorry i should have said commies, it must be very funny) effects in turkey is never zero. maybe you should spend more time in studying turkish politics. maybe then you can talk about turkey's domestic affairs. otherwise you seem to be very rude. (and there is nothing like "turkish" communist and "armenian" communist. a communist is a communist. learn about communist internationalism)

now it's decipherable that you were very kind against racist turks in this topic. i think it was unbearable not to discuss in a haphazard.

i will continue to try to establish relations with armenians in other ways. thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion.

goodbye, hoşçakalın, sirov.

Edited February 7, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[Kars]

how encouraging you are to make people have sympathy for you.

if i'm disturbing you, ok this is my last post. but i get very sad when i realized you never cared about what i said. first, i am not a communist. i am an anarchist. that's why i represent a minority in turkey. communists' (oh sorry i should have said commies, it must be very funny) effects in turkey is never zero. maybe you should spend more time in studying turkish politics. maybe then you can talk about turkey's domestic affairs. otherwise you seem to be very rude. (and there is nothing like "turkish" communist and "armenian" communist. a communist is a communist. learn about communist internationalism)

now it's decipherable that you were very kind against racist turks in this topic. i think it was unbearable not to discuss in a haphazard.

i will continue to try to establish relations with armenians in other ways. thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion.

goodbye, hoşçakalın, sirov.

I think there is a misunderstanding. Of course, I didn’t mean to offend you, and of course you are not disturbing me or anyone else here. In fact, you were very much welcome here, because many of us (regular participants of this forum) thought that some kind of virtual dialog between Turks and Armenians is a good idea.

What regards the “sympathy” issue – trust me, I never ask for anyone’s sympathy here – be it an Armenian, a Turk or whoever.

I simply expressed my dislike of communists – which I have done many times in this forum, conversing with Armenian participants, and no one has ever threatened to leave because of that! You are the first one to do so, so far.

We are here to exchange our views and opinions – not to become absolutely hostile if our views or opinions differ. In such case forums like this one simply wouldn’t exist!

You unequivocally expressed your hatred of nationalists. Which is fine – that’s your view. I may or may not agree with you, but I will treat it just like that: your personal opinion. You, evidently, have no respect for someone else’s personal opinion and get “offended” immediately, like a little girl.

I, on the other hand, consider myself a nationalist. However, I was not offended with your opinion and did not threaten to leave the forum only because someone dislikes my opinion. Come on, grow up! We are only exchanging views here, nothing more.

Cheer up and get rid of your complexes!

[SamvelT]

Yeah fraternity , I don't think Kars wanted to insult You at all ... Well sometimes it makes a sence to read what we see loudly , to understand intonation so to say of our opponents . That's how , if we are not prejudging , we can save conversation in frames of civility and friendliness . Don't take it as You did ... My father after all was a member of CP , but that was requirement then , to graduate institute , university or work in better environment ... Not idealism like You have whatsoever . So our view of communists comes from Soviet experience , nothing personal to any other country comrades ...

[Nairi]

Indeed, Fraternity for eternity, Kars, didn’t mean to offend you or hurt you at all. He just ironically expressed his view on communist ideology and wanted, to say, I think, that you’re a bit idealizing some aspects of life, which is pretty understandable for people of your age. It’s really good that you participate in discussion of these topics, while your points are very interesting, and all who can read them considers so. Take it easy young man

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

ok, one more post

i am really used to the ideological arguements. i never get hurt when someone say bad things about my ideology. i don't get hurt even someone insult me due to my ideology. i know how former USSR had bad affects on you. it's very normal for you to dislike a communist as a person. you can dislike me. i don't quite care. i am not an emotional person, believe me (and i am not a communist, believe this too )

but please understand my concerns. here i wrote my every word very very nervously. i always think about if i couldn't express myself properly, you could have misunderstood me, i could have hurt your feelings involunteerly. i was sitting on pins and needles here. i never wanted to be somewhat annoying (i still don't know which words of me are annoying, maybe i myself am annoying)

think as if you were me, what would you do when someone tells you "your voice is equal to zero", or "enough is enough". if i made communist propaganda here, ok enough is enough. but i just tried to give information about turkey, and made some humble critizations. i didn't think that i deserved such a statement. it's more than an insult. if kars had insulted me i would have had the right to react. but when my voice is equal to zero, doesn't matter if i react or not. noone will here my voice, double or quit.

and if my voice is equal to zero, no need to speak anymore, right? or if it's really enough, why should i write anymore? did kars change his mind really? does he think that enough is not enough now? (maybe "the world is not enough", james bond? )

or now he thinks that my voice is a very important voice?

no, this kind of thoughts is not one of those which change in a day, you know that.

if you really want to talk with me some more please add me to your messenger list. [email protected]

ok. now, a real goodbye to you friends.

[Nairi]

Dear fraternity for eternity, we do see that you're very responsible concerning your posts and this is appreciated as well, while the topic is looked through by a great number of people who can see your views either. Thank you for it I think when it was said that "your voice is equal zero" it was referred not particularly to you, it was meant that the voice of people in general fighting for freedom or people who are in opposition is not widely spread among others, and people like you, unfortunately, are usually minority. Don't feel nervous while discussing anything here or elsewhere, cause this should not be a matter for your emotional health And don't think that what you say equals to zero. This is impossible because any sentence has it's impact. Vice versa if you believe in what you say, you'll keep talking about it and don't give up. Thanks for messenger address

Edited February 9, 2007 by Nairi

[Thug]

А почему их аккаунт удален?

[SamvelT]

Я тоже не понял ...

[MiG-35]

А почему их аккаунт удален?

On special'no prosil eto...

[THECHILD OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE]

Hello, everyone.

I have newly registered.

I am a Turkish guy from Istanbul, Turkey. I want to express my thoughts on the genocide issue and other issues.

As you know, the Turkish governments over the years have denied that a genocide ever happened to Armenians.

However, in recent years, mainly due to the positive effect of EU membership application, freedom of expression sitation has gotten better in Turkey and so a lot of people in Turkey have been able to express their thoughts on various media regarding the genocide. Of course unfortunately some of those peope were taken to court.

The effect of nationalist ideoogy is still strong in Turkey. However I don't think we need to be pessimistic that one day Turkey will at least accept that 'atrocities' happened against the Armenians and at least will offer some kind of apology.

I personally feel very bad about what happened to Armenians back then. The personal stories are really tragic. Not only deaths and injuries but also loss of property and having to leave one's home is very tragic.

Some stuff I learned recently really made me cry.

But please don't blame all Turkish peoeple and don't have a grudge against Turks in general because of what happened back then. Okay, you can rightly have a hard feeling against Turks (and others)who blindly continue to deny what happened and those who say racist things against Armenians.

And one more thing, please don't forget that some people here are not able to have access to some sources and the Internet. They just know what has been taught to them in elementary/secondary school and assume that all is true. Also, over the years, people here have been exposed to nationalist ieology regarding many issues and so they accept all that without questioning it.

I myself am againt ALL types of nationalist ideology, Turkish, Armenian, American, Kenyan or whatever ! Nationalism is a very unhumanist ideology. I continue to fight Turkish (and others) nationalists in some forums and speak out against them. Of course I have become unpopular with many such people because of that

I am also saddened that some people here on this forum praise the terrorist organisation ASALA. I hope humanist Armenians will fight such ideology too.

Armenians should teach their children about what happened BUT must not preach hatred against Turks in general.

I really want good realations between Turkey and Armenia. Hatred should NOT continue. It must stop from both sides. There are already so many bad issues in the world, such as wars, destruction of nature, extinction of many animal species and famine. We humsn beings must strive together to fight such things. There is no place for blind hatred in our world. What good is it going to bring ?

I will give you two examples of racism/discrimination; one from Turks against Armenians and the other from Armenians against Turks. Both these really made me quite sad and angry. In a chat room, one Turkish guy said 'I love all people except Armenians' and then continued his nasty words.

And, then my other example : I planned on going to Armenia last year on holiday and I was doing some research on touristy places. I came across a Web site of a pub in Yerevan. As I was reading some stuff there, in the section about music, it said 'We play all kinds of music, except Turkish music'. That is discrimination extended to culture/music. Very sad !

Of course this put me off from going there. I know that I shouldn't generalise but then, I was just worried what response I might get from people in Armenia just due to my nationality.

I repeat : Nationalism is an ideology that must be fought against.

I know that I might unfortunately attract some bad responses because of what I wrote here (mainly my strong views against nationalism). Anyway, I hope that I won't be insulted here just because I am Turkish.

I actually hope I can contribute to this forum and who knows, I might build some friendship with some people here, and who knows, I might get to meet some people face to face, either in Turkey or in Armenia.

Cheers,

Bora

LAN YAZIKLAR OLSUN SANA NASIL TURKSUN SEN???GELMISSIN BURAYA ERMENILERE HAKLI OLDUKLARINI SOYLUYOSUN

[Kars]

LAN YAZIKLAR OLSUN SANA NASIL TURKSUN SEN???GELMISSIN BURAYA ERMENILERE HAKLI OLDUKLARINI SOYLUYOSUN

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