Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk

[Thug]

Привет Thug джан. Вот ты говоришь что политика это одно, а личное -- это другое. Я с тобой согласен. Но скажи лично ты на личном уровне как к простым туркам относишься?(их государство в расчет не берем)

Ереванци, скажи, как я могу к ним относиться, если их вокруг меня нет? Я к ним просто никак не отношусь.

В общем, к простым людям у меня отношение нейтральное

P.s . я решил что все же ЗА диалог

fraternity for eternity

ok, so could you give us link to english-speaking Turkish forum, it would be good to try to talk about future in region and how they do see it. Because between Armenians and Turks is information vacuum.

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

dude it's impossible to find a turkish forum where english is used as the main language. we don't have a diaspora or something like that which makes us need for an english forum.

we are trying to start an information group or communication link between armenian and turkish students. now we're talking this issue with the people from the newspaper agos, and some intellectual writers (who have visited armenia several times as members of "east conferance")

if you think that a forum is needed, ok i will tell it to my friends and i hope they will do something for that. thank you for your kindness.

[Kars]

i hope someone will translate me what's going on

Nothing is going on, except what I have already told you.

You came up with an idea to open a special topic where Armenian and Turkish youth can participate and express opinions about our problems. I personally have nothing against it, and there are many others who do not object.

But, like I said, there will be some participants who will reject the idea, because some think it is worthless and that no good outcome should be expected. They are also right – as far as I remember these dialogs usually don’t last long and eventually end with no consensus.

I think you can invite your friends, this forum has no special rules against such topics. Quite the opposite – we welcome any healthy discussion.

But, please, before you do – read the rules thoroughly (there is an English-language section there): http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=93

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

dear kars, don't take it personally, but i have some complaints about this forum in this matter. for example i got really disappointed when i tried to focus on an important subject in a topic named "what if turks agree" and subtitled "hope to see turks here" but noone responsed (except samvelt) this is not what we expect from a good communication.

now if i say something offending, please know that it is just because of my bad english. i just can't express myself perfectly, ok? i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

you're pretty open to hear what you want about problems between us, but you never make self-criticism (maybe you do it when you're talking to each other but you don't in english) in turkey we say, "stab yourself with a needle before you stab the others with an awl" you behave a little fragile to stab yourselves with a needle. samvelt (the only one who replied my thought in the topic i mentioned) told "we have our own solution. you find yours. don't expect a solution from us". i guess most of you think like that even you don't say that explicitly. this is not what we look for. we're trying to form a relation based on empathy. it's very excusable that you don't know turks' concerns about armenian question but you should know that for a proper solution.

so for the summary, i will invite my friends to join this forum which consists of many precious people but what i wanted from you, kars, was a different thing from that. we require some altruism from armenians. (i don't mean that you should abdicate from your demands by altruism, i mean you should sweat blood like us to achieve your demands)

i repeat, if i said anything wrong please forgive my bad communication skills and english-knowledge.

Edited February 1, 2007 by fraternity for eternity

[Gorn]

Сомневаюсь в искренности турка...Даже многотысячные толпы на похоронах Гранта Динка говорят не о том что турки изменились, а всего лишь о том, что было желание показать Европе что такие изменения есть, дабы вступить в ЕС и там уже продожать свои черные дела

[Kars]

dear kars, don't take it personally, but i have some complaints about this forum in this matter. for example i got really disappointed when i tried to focus on an important subject in a topic named "what if turks agree" and subtitled "hope to see turks here" but noone responsed (except samvelt) this is not what we expect from a good communication.

now if i say something offending, please know that it is just because of my bad english. i just can't express myself perfectly, ok? i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

you're pretty open to hear what you want about problems between us, but you never make self-criticism (maybe when yo do it when you're talking to each other but you don't in english) in turkey we say, "stab yourself with a needle before you stab the others with an awl" you behave a little fragile to stab yourselves with a needle. samvelt (the only one who replied my thought in the topic i mentioned) told "we have our own solution. you find yours. don't expect a solution from us". i guess most of you think like that even you don't say that explicitly. this is not what we look for. we're trying to form a relation based on empathy. it's very excusable that you don't know turks' concerns about armenian question but you should know that for a proper solution.

so for the summary, i will invite my friends to join this forum which consists of many precious people but what i wanted from you, kars, was a different thing from that. we require some altruism from armenians. (i don't mean that you should abdicate from your demands by altruism, i mean you should sweat blood like us to achieve your demands.

i repeat, if i said anything wrong please forgive my bad communication skills and english-knowledge.

Fraternity, don't worry about your English - it is a foreign language for you, just like for all of us. You express yourself very well, there are no problems. I will reply to your post later.

[Nairi]

dear kars, don't take it personally, but i have some complaints about this forum in this matter. for example i got really disappointed when i tried to focus on an important subject in a topic named "what if turks agree" and subtitled "hope to see turks here" but noone responsed (except samvelt) this is not what we expect from a good communication.

now if i say something offending, please know that it is just because of my bad english. i just can't express myself perfectly, ok? i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

you're pretty open to hear what you want about problems between us, but you never make self-criticism (maybe you do it when you're talking to each other but you don't in english) in turkey we say, "stab yourself with a needle before you stab the others with an awl" you behave a little fragile to stab yourselves with a needle. samvelt (the only one who replied my thought in the topic i mentioned) told "we have our own solution. you find yours. don't expect a solution from us". i guess most of you think like that even you don't say that explicitly. this is not what we look for. we're trying to form a relation based on empathy. it's very excusable that you don't know turks' concerns about armenian question but you should know that for a proper solution.

so for the summary, i will invite my friends to join this forum which consists of many precious people but what i wanted from you, kars, was a different thing from that. we require some altruism from armenians. (i don't mean that you should abdicate from your demands by altruism, i mean you should sweat blood like us to achieve your demands)

i repeat, if i said anything wrong please forgive my bad communication skills and english-knowledge.

Your idea is quite good, it was underlined here. The thing is how to realize it so that it could really work out, have a positive performance. You demand that more Armenians should participate in this discussion, this is the right thing, but... take into account the following moments

Firstly, not all users master English as well as to conduct discussion, secondly, there are people who escape such discussions as they don't want to be provoked on offending, while this is a point of great nicety for them (this question is especially painful for those whose anscestors suffered or died during the genocide). And finally, are your frineds well informed about the history of Turk-Armenian relations so that they could discuss it without digressing from the main subject? You know, judging by the experince of such discussions we come to conclusion that they must be well elaborated, otherwise they would be no use.

And the last, I'm not sure, this is only my assumption, but I think empathy usually occurs between particular people not nations (it's as if you like or dislike a person because of certain reasons, his or her characteristics), however some steps for understanding must be taken-this is for granted.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Nairi

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

it's very nice to see you to respond my concerns. there are a few differences in our viewpoints. i have to explain them from our side.

first, (the simple one ) for our situation i use the word empathy to emphasize the problems between our nations should be solved by thinking which action causes which reaction from the other side. there's a well known example, prisoner's dilemma, in which two prisoners do their best for their sides but finally they see that a better result could have been obtained. generally in international relations these kind of troubles occur. we should avoid it. for example, if armenian nationalism rises and this ascension is noticed in turkey, turkish nationalism rises too. but in fact we should act exactly the opposite way (doing serious jobs for our friendship etc), to avoid harmful results of nationalist acts. this would be some kind of empathy.

secondly, i don't think that my friends should know the history well. because we have nothing to do with history. of course, we're trying to make our government to face its history but it's something about turkey. what will be the gain if we constantly talk about history? we think that we should build our future. look in this topic you see some turkish racists' posts. it's easy to see that they want another genocide. they are negligible people, they're very few; but if we don't do something their number may increase. maybe in armenia there are some people who want a turkish genocide, it's very possible. so i mean let's talk about our present time and our future at first. i don't say let's forget the history, please don't understand my words like that. i just say let's not allow the history to prevent a good future between us. and trust the democratic people in turkey, victory will be ours

[SamvelT]

Dear fraternity for eternity ! I apologize to interrupt in between your and kars's responds . But I couldn't stay away without commenting on your second paragraph : about your friends knowledge of history ... Well , maybe You've got the point there from one side ... But from the other side You already assume , that there's only bad in history would be brought up or remembered in general . So , in some ways , my assumption of that is - you ( You personally and turks in general , excuse me for globalizing ) are afraid of history and History ... And another reaction to what You wrote was , that You probably assume there's a way forward without knowing where this road (History) comes from . I think that the pragmatism is working well with full knowledge of the subject , otherwise it can be a wrong way , causing even more or deeper mistakes and less ways out from trouble . You see , I gave two examples of what my grandfather experienced , just for one reason , to pass everyone who was reading it to understand - it's not so simple , there IS two sides of thestory even from one side of the conflict (armenian side) ... And that I personally (and I hope We as a nation) , understand those OUR two sides . Well , I interrupted enough today , will let you guys to resume your conversation ... have a nice days !

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i don't remember if in this topic or in the other but i told about the fear of turkish state. turks are afraid of history because turkish state doesn't want to lose lands never ever again. because ottoman empire lost a great percentage of its lands for 200 years, and the founders of the republic related the land-loss with government falls. this is why the government is very harsh to kurds, and very nervous about armenian question. and whenever you call eastern anatolia "western armenia", governers will continue their denial about history.

i am sailing in dangerous seas already but i've got some objection points about the fear of history. because you have some problems with this subject, too. i cannot say it's a phobia like turks, but it's a taboo. you and your governers always say "we don't even discuss if a genocide happened, first throw in the towel about it, then let's talk about other cases" i think, it's not so sensible. (you don't have to explain the reason of this taboo, it's very blatant) but anyway if you know that genocide happened, you must be sure about if you and turks debate about genocide you will persuade turkish side. why are you so reluctant about this kind of confrontation? i can't really understand.

and i congratulate you, you pointed a good matter. if the substructure is not solid enough, the building will collapse sooner or later, i agree wtih you. to build our future, we shouldn't leave cracks in our history. but when will we say that substructure is reliable? i think it shouldn't be the time of recognition of turkey. look what marx said: "everything happens twice in history. the first one is a tragedy, where the second one is comedy" if something bad will occur between our nations in the future, it will be some kind of black humor which we both have no stomach anymore. but at least i know that we will never live tragic events like in the past.

if you fear from the future, where's the motivation to live?

[Nairi]

fraternity, I think those who are reluctant of this confrontation consider that turkish side would again cast doubts on facts, pervert them, and thus deliberately linger and neglect the question of resolution.

I also agree with you that tragic events like this shouldn' t be left in past and ignored in future relations. This is impossible.

What do you suggest as a basement for further reconciliation?

Excuse me, are you a Communist?

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

the base may be our common culture. last year i read some books about armenia and got surprised when i realized that we've got so many similar elements in our cultures. (for example you eat manti, basterma like us. or when i listen to system of a down i start to play folk dance as a reflex etc ) if turks can see that your culture is like ours, they will warm up to you. after we establish our communication, after we set up the empathy between our nations, turks will understand the historical predicaments.

in fact i'm and anarchist but i have sympathy towards communists. in this forum there is not an option to choose black flag of anarchy as avatar, so i chose hammer and sickle

[Nairi]

the base may be our common culture. last year i read some books about armenia and got surprised when i realized that we've got so many similar elements in our cultures. (for example you eat manti, basterma like us. or when i listen to system of a down i start to play folk dance as a reflex etc ) if turks can see that your culture is like ours, they will warm up to you. after we establish our communication, after we set up the empathy between our nations, turks will understand the historical predicaments.

in fact i'm and anarchist but i have sympathy towards communists. in this forum there is not an option to choose black flag of anarchy as avatar, so i chose hammer and sickle

Well, dear, fraternity for eternity, the term culture is much more wide of that what we usually understand under it in our everyday life: like commom quisine, folk songs, and beloved by you S.O.A.D. Culture implies not only these particular elements but also common approach in understanding of some general and global problems.

Perhaps this would be too primitive example, anyway, suppose I like to eat basturma and you like to eat it too, but it doesn't necessarily imply that exactly this and only this fact must be a reason or a linking matter for us to become good friends So there is need of something more than of only this exceptional fact. On the whole, elements of culture are not enough, in my opinion.

Right, I just asked the question judging, by your avatar and noticing that you quoted Marx

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

of course, if our cultures were exactly the same our nations would be exactly the same i mean if our nations are in touch with each other in some ways, we can expand this touching points if we try. there is a good example of it, merhabarev project. (the name comes from the combination of greeting words in our languages, "merhaba" in turkish and "barev" in armenian) some photographers from turkey went to armenia and took some photos, and some armenian photographers did it in turkey and they made and exhibition together. this was an amusing event for me. you see, we're not only according in cuisine and music, but also in photograpy

[the good]

the good muallim, your text above looks like a publication in Zerkalo.az by a Akif Nagi efendi…

thank u for the compliment but to be honest i never read zerkalo.az...why should i if ive day.az?)) which u all most probably hate)))

You are not right: THAT Baku was NOT the result of tolerance of azeris. THAT Baku was the result to the Russian presence in Caucasus. THAT multi-cultural, friendly Baku appeared on the Earth when the Russians came to Caucasus, and disappeared when the Russians went away. If your "tolerance" means something, try to apply it, say, to Talish and Lezgin people, who are asking you for national textbooks and national schools for years without any success… If you are so tolerant, why don't you give some rights to Talishs or Lezgins?

i dont agree with u at all. i think i wont be exagerating if i said that ur statement is rather unlogical and not even close to reality.i agree that many things changed when russians came but no one is capable of changing the genetic construction. the russians were also in georgia.if ur theory was correct the same thing whould have been applied there.but it didnt.and considering the fact that u have shared religions makes ur theory even more incompetent an staggering.

addendum: and it didnt disappear when russians went away. it just temporary stagnated..caused by ur betrayal...

dont forget that the last decade has been very tensed for my people.every process is being adjusted to the war.however, slowly by slowly we are managing to cope with it(i.e emotionally). furthermore, i think my brothers(windowsvista) post speaks for itself. read it)

ur problem is that u think u know what goes in my country but u dont have even the slightest idea)

And lastly…

… when i was little i was a big fan of bruce lee)) i still am actually)) love that concept of a little chinese man

Wow, pretty refreshing…

yeah just as refreshing as ur nick and avatar))) i spoke to bruce last..he told me mikoyan says barev))he's proud of u)))

Edited February 2, 2007 by the good

[Nairi]

of course, if our cultures were exactly the same our nations would be exactly the same i mean if our nations are in touch with each other in some ways, we can expand this touching points if we try. there is a good example of it, merhabarev project. (the name comes from the combination of greeting words in our languages, "merhaba" in turkish and "barev" in armenian) some photographers from turkey went to armenia and took some photos, and some armenian photographers did it in turkey and they made and exhibition together. this was an amusing event for me. you see, we're not only according in cuisine and music, but also in photograpy

OK cultural exchange for mutual understanding is good. Anyway discussions between intelligent turkish and armenian young people is necessary as well. Concerning me, I'm for it.

How do you estimate the possibility of further public discussions of Armenian Genocide and Turkey-Armenia relations in Turkish society, especially after the killing of Dink? Will it be frequent or not?

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

OK cultural exchange for mutual understanding is good. Anyway discussions between intelligent turkish and armenian young people is necessary as well. Concerning me, I'm for it.

How do you estimate the possibility of further public discussions of Armenian Genocide and Turkey-Armenia relations in Turkish society, especially after the killing of Dink? Will it be frequent or not?

the nationalist ideology in turkey is always controlled and used by military. maybe you know, turkey is(was) always ruled by the council of national security, which is controlled by generals and kemalist elites. but now it started to change slowly. bureaucratic government is losing its power. some events of recent years proves that. so for the government, i am hopeful for the long-term policies.

for the people, i am much more hopeful. i am really interested in politics, especially in protest actions, but neither i nor anyone could anticipate the reaction against the murder of hrant dink. it's very ridiculous but in turkey assassinations are traditional. i'm not kidding. in every period of 3-4 years an important person is killed in turkey. and the people who contravenes this murders were inconsiderably few. but by the hrant dink murder we saw that it has changed. you saw the people in his funeral, there were approximately 130.000 people. from now on, the people are trying to do something to suppress these kind of racists acts. by the way, why do you think i am here

we started our works and discussions with an armenian friend in istanbul, he will be the bridge between us 'cause he knows both armenian and turkish. we'll see good days, my friends.

[Nairi]

fraternity for eternity ,

SamvelT and kars are very good and keen in this topic, hope they'll be more active. If you don't mind I would like to continue "torturing" you by asking some questions?

Is it possible for ordinar people like you to make their government less military? Usually in countries were military authoroties are strong any manifastation of opposition is suppressed.

I'm interested in your opinion. Who is responsible for these notorious assassinations in your country?

What do you think about changing the legislation? I'm speaking about this disputable provision, which has number 301, if I'm not mistaken.

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i am very masochist in this way, please keep torturing

in 1980 there was a military coup in turkey. and since that time ordinary people have voted against the military. (except one election but it was an odd one because of PKK) kemalists are striving to rise nationalism again by paranoias about kurdish state in iraq but their job is more difficult than before.

kemalism is a jacobinist ideology, it tries to educate and sheperd people. it imposes a tough laicism and this is not what turks want. and military's nationalism is (hmm how can i say that) somewhat city-dweller, i mean its full of westernism. so by the discontent of our people and pressure of european union turkey trends to be a democratic country.

who is responsible for these murders? of course kemalism is responsible. kemalism always tends to see the country and the republic threatened by the enemies both outside and inside. because kemalists know that if they cannot convince the people that they are threatened they will lose their power. they know that in fact noone wants kemalism. they try to make the people believe that they need kemalism to get rid of the enemies. but this theory doesn't work anymore.

governing party AKP sent the ball to non-governmental organisations about the article 301. it will change when NGOs make a joint decision about what should be done about that. some (i apologize my foul mouth but) fucking goddamn nationalist cads provoke the discussions not to change the article. but after the murder public opinion demands a change not because of sorrowful events but because the article damages turkey's prestige among the european countries.

now, i'm dying of curiosity; please someone tell me who is the person in kars's and yerevanci's avatars

[SamvelT]

2 the good : addendum: and it didnt disappear when russians went away. it just temporary stagnated..caused by ur betrayal... Sorry , I don't understand who's betrayal ? What are You talking about ? Or You assume that we (as armenians ) should be faitful to azeris , or turks , or russians , or britts , americans , persians ... or anybody else , but not to ourselves ? Well ... then what about you guys , where you so faitful to as , or ... just to your own selves all those years living togheter ? You see , You are trying to advocate turks and go even further , You copy this assumption of armenian betrayal to azeris ... I wrote once before to the guy from Baku , who visited our website , saying that by our estimate , Shemaha (for example, because I'm from Shemaha ) is more armenian than azeri . And I'm sorry , don't try to bring here any arguments , that armenians came just 200 years ago to this part of the world ... It's been much longer and way before any turk appeared there ... Now if anybody from natives of that land (besides armenians) are still around , wellcome , they will actually have a right to say us , but not azeris ... It is not to say that azeris do not belong to this territory ( at least for the last 200 years ) , but yoy guys are trying to advocate on everyone's behalf against armenians and automatically start to believe that you have a right to do so ... In other words - capitalizing on other ethnic groups questions ... I want to quote your other statement , that we don't know what's going on in Azerbajdzhan right now , or we don't have a slightest idea of how you feel or think ... Well , sorry , but we actually do ... After all we are not from Mars , and a lot of us are from Baku . So , You ( personally ) have to know that azeri mentality is not something that is hard to understand for most of us ( no offence ) . It's just different level of understanding of each other . You see , if we spoke in Baku mostly using russian as a conversational language , it didn't mean that we thought russian , our mentality was still armenian . You can apply that to anybody else in Baku ... Am I right ? I know for sure , that this game of who is tougher , will never result in Peace , unless azeri side will understand that they were lucky to have what they have now , but Azerb-n is not an empire and can not rule the others ... The first peace should be achieved in ones own mind first ... Well I hope it was sharp , but not offensive and will wait for your respond ...

[MiG-35]

Fraternity for eternity muallim, you demand too much from Armenians, whereas you, Turks, have done too little for us from your side.

Which NEGATIVE things we see from the Turkish side?!

- We see blockade officially declared to Armenia by Turkey.

- We see Turkey’s huge efforts to deny the Armenian Genocide internationally.

- We see Turkey’s attempts to isolate Armenia economically by constructions of railroads and pipelines around Armenia.

- We see Turkey’s support to Azerbaijan in Nagorono Karabakh conflict (including training of azeri officers in military bases of Turkey).

Which POSITIVE things we see from the Turkish side?!

- We see that thousands of turks calleing “We are Hrant Dink”.

- And we see a few non-nationalist Turkish members in Armenian forums.

And nothing more…

So the positive efforts from the Turkish side are too little to motivate any changes in Armenian policy. Well, yes, many Turks say: “We are Hrant Dink”. In turn, I can promise that when somebody kills Orhan Pamuk, I will say: “I am Orhan Pamuk”. But I see no reasons to change the traditional Armenian ways to act. The progressive Turks now would have no idea about the Genocide, in general, if the Armenian activists had not acted actively in Western parliaments…

So… although I believe that you, Fraternity for eternity, are a democrat and an anti-nationalist… but I also see those nationalist Turks who build, say, the railroad Kars-Akhalkalak-Tbilisi-Baku, and who declare that their aim is to isolate Armenia…

So as BALANCE of this I have little reason to want to see Armenian policy changed

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

what do you mean by "too much"? i just want you to build up a mutual empathy with us. is it really too much for you to make actions by thinking its reactions? i don't want to believe that.

i know turkish side has done very little so far. but it doesn't mean that we will never do anything. but it will be step by step, we can't do everything we should immidately. at first we should overcome kemalist resistance. look for 23 years turkish army and PKK are in a civil war. more than 40.000 people have died since 1984. what could we do? nothing vital. we still try to enact legislation for the right of education in mother tongue for minorities but we are not successful even about it yet.

turkish army is the 4th most populated army in the world. the 2nd in NATO. do you think it is very easy to break its resistance?? i can understand that you want an immidiate solution, you may be losing your patience but you should think the conjoncture in turkey while demanding something from us.

[MiG-35]

what do you mean by "too much"? i just want you to build up a mutual empathy with us. is it really too much for you to make actions by thinking its reactions? i don't want to believe that.

I have to say that you not only are for "mutual empathy" (which is OK, of course), but above you suggested that the Armenian organizations (demanding Genocide recognition in western Parliaments) stop their lobbi activities.

turkish army is the 4th most populated army in the world. the 2nd in NATO. do you think it is very easy to break its resistance?? i can understand that you want an immidiate solution, you may be losing your patience but you should think the conjoncture in turkey while demanding something from us.

This is one good reason for us to seek for help from US, Europe, Russia... to politically protect us from the turkish army, etc...

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i told that lobby activities and/or seeking help from powerful countries are interpreted as you are used as a puppet to make imperialists' dreams come true in turkey. (please don't understand that i think so too) but with a quotation from michael jackson i can say that "all i wanna say's that they don't really care about us" they care about your votes not your problems, isn't it quite clear?

and turkish army can't do any cross-border operations to armenia. why would they do that? they're already accused of anfair actions against armenians. going further will prove that they're offenders.

let's go back to prisoner's dilemma, it may be seen logical to make hostile acts because of turkey make it too. but we can get a better result if we act together. it's the rule of game theory.

[MiG-35]

Well, my main message to you was that, although we respect the democratic and non-nationalist Turks, we have to say that the role played by them is very small, and at the moment the actions of Turkey are very anti-Armenian (including a few new “projects”, such as, economical isolation of Armenia). Thus, we have to act in a way that creates the most reliable protection for us.

By the way, you indirectly confirmed that we are right:

and turkish army can't do any cross-border operations to armenia. why would they do that? they're already accused of anfair actions against armenians. going further will prove that they're offenders.

You see! So the Turkish army doesn’t cross our border not because Armenia is strong enough to resist, and not because Turkey is democratic enough to respect our borders, but because, as you say: “they're already accused of anfair actions against armenians. going further will prove that they're offenders”. So we have to continue our policy regardless of the fact whether or not you find that the West uses us as a “puppet”. We simply have almost no free space for manipulations.

Fraternity for eternity muallim, when you and other democratic Turks will be able to really make the situation of Armenia a little better, then we, Armenians, will have reasons to change something in our policy. Until that these talks will remain verbal talks only…