Թ = Ց?

[Psi-Lord]

I’m new to the forum and this is my very first post, so, please, bear with me.

I’ve noticed, to my surprise, that in words ending in -ություն, թ actually sounds as ց (and it’s transcribed as such in the Wiktionary, for instance). Actually, there’s even a note in the Wiktionary entry for this suffix that says:

Some people consider the pronunciation IPA: [uˈtsʰɪ̯un] to be wrong, even though in Armenia it’s used not only colloquially (and IPA: [uˈtʰɪ̯un] never is) but also, for example, by anchors of public television.

So I was wondering – is this something particular to this suffix, or am I to expect that to happen in other words, too?

P.S.: I accidentally hit Enter before finishing writing this post, so I’m sorry if someone’s seen a blank message earlier instead.

P.P.S.: Although I can read very simple Russian, and use the Google translator to understand some larger bits, I don’t speak Russian at all. I wish I did.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Psi-Lord

[Kars]

I’ve noticed, to my surprise, that in words ending in -ություն, թ actually sounds as ց

Yes, it is one of the phonetic peculiarities of Eastern Armenian. Even though purists insist that it should not be so, in real life the letter ''թ'' is always pronounced as ''ց'' in this suffix.

[Psi-Lord]

Thank you.

[Sir Christopher]

I've noticed, to my surprise, that in words ending in -ություն, թ actually sounds as ց (and it's transcribed as such in the Wiktionary, for instance).

This post has been edited by Psi-Lord: Yesterday, 01:17:44

Yes indeed that is quite surprising, indeed.

Please also note that the segment ութ in ություն also means number 8, so in case if 'թ' would always sound 'թ' in ություն (which is quite frequent construct in Armenian language), then that would directly trigger direct activation of the pattern 8 in the brain, so that is why instead of 'թ' the 'ց' is used, though hilariously that activates the Ninth Gates in the brain: it looks alike the number 9th.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Sir Christopher

[Javakhk]

Interestinly, in some dialects this Թ is not turning to Ց.

[Sir Christopher]

Interestinly, in some dialects this Թ is not turning to Ց.

But please also note that the letter Թ is the 9th letter of Armenian alphabet, anyway.

So, there are different modes of operation, e.g. one of the cases is the Java script case which you mention Mr. Javakhk.

For those who is not aware Javakhk is an Armenian region now incorporated into Republic of Georgia, Armenians living there talk on specific Armenian dialect.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Sir Christopher

[Sir Christopher]

Definitely Armenian language has miraculous properties and very great potential from many points of view.

[SAS]

Yes, it is one of the phonetic peculiarities of Eastern Armenian. Even though purists insist that it should not be so, in real life the letter ''թ'' is always pronounced as ''ց'' in this suffix.

Kars,

если в реальной жизни ереванцы произносят գըդալ как քըթալ, то это вовсе не значит, что так и надо произносить. Я сомневаюсь, что люди с армянским образованием произносят ''թ'' как ''ց'' в суффиксе -ություն(ութիւն). По крайней мере среди моих знакомых таковых нет. Русская транскрипция латинского суффикса "(u)tion"(что фонетически очень похож на "(ու)թիւն=(u)tiwn") приводит непосредственно к "цион-сион"-у. Например, revolution - революция, contribution-контрибуция, institution-институция, populаtion - популяция, resolution-резолюция definition-дефиниция, nation-нация и т.д. А история цоизации "թ" непосредственно связано с русификацией части армян в самой Армении, для которых армянский язык был и остался языком улицы и рынка. Кстати, на устах русифицированного армянина, фамилия Путина звучит как ... Пуцин.