chachanak Posted March 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Mi hat cinic harts tam eli. Yerb vor gorum enk "Paiqar, paiqar minchev verj", et "verj" bari tak menk inch@ nkati unenk, minchev inchi verj@? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mazd Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Mi hat cinic harts tam eli. Yerb vor gorum enk "Paiqar, paiqar minchev verj", et "verj" bari tak menk inch@ nkati unenk, minchev inchi verj@? Yete xosy gnum e Sharzhman tarineri slogani masin, kartsum em "verj" aselov haskanum ein "haghtanak"... a chto by eto znachilo, sprashivaetsja... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mazd Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Кстати в школе очень часто вместо того, чтобы ответить на мои вопросы, звали моих родителей к директору Знакомая история... Так вот, мне все время кажется, что нам что-то не догаваривают. Знаете, чачанак, у меня такое же ощущение... и за много лет я не читал или не видал чтоб мы - армяне - хоть как-то пытались бы ответить на этот вопрос. Единственный случай - фильм Егояна “Арарат”: вспомните монолог или диалог, точно не помню, того турка-полковника... ну, о том, какие алчные мы, какими гражданами государства Турция мы были, ну и все в этом духе. Ведь надо обо всем этом задуматься, по-моему. может в этом монологе и часть ответа на ваш вопрос... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Знакомая история... Знаете, чачанак, у меня такое же ощущение... и за много лет я не читал или не видал чтоб мы - армяне - хоть как-то пытались бы ответить на этот вопрос. Единственный случай - фильм Егояна “Арарат”: вспомните монолог или диалог, точно не помню, того турка-полковника... ну, о том, какие алчные мы, какими гражданами государства Турция мы были, ну и все в этом духе. Ведь надо обо всем этом задуматься, по-моему. может в этом монологе и часть ответа на ваш вопрос... Da etot dialog ya pomnyu. V koridore s molodym parnem, pomoemu, vy ob etom govorite. Ochen' delicatnaya tema, i trudno naiti ludei, kotorye bez lishnix emotsii, smogut ee obsujdat'. No vse taki ochen' xochetsya znat' bolshe, chem nam govorili. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Так что же случилось? Почему немцов "не пожалели" а турков так защищают? Из-за того, что многие страны были как-то "причастны", что допустили геноцид и боятся, что их задница тоже не чистая? ЧТО? Почему хотябы нам армянам, наши историки и политики не дают четкого ответа? Все, что мы до сих пор знаем о процесе нашей борьбы за принятие геноцида, похоже на правду, но все равно что-то здесь не клеится. Почему мир так долго отказывался быть на нашей стороне, на стороне правды? элементарно, побеждает лишь силный. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 элементарно, побеждает лишь силный. I don't think it's that black and white. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Da etot dialog ya pomnyu. V koridore s molodym parnem, pomoemu, vy ob etom govorite. Ochen' delicatnaya tema, i trudno naiti ludei, kotorye bez lishnix emotsii, smogut ee obsujdat'. No vse taki ochen' xochetsya znat' bolshe, chem nam govorili. A net, sorry, eto ne tot dialog. Shas vspomnila rech o kakoi scene idet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aha++ Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 K sojaleniyu, it is black and white. Lyudey massovo ubivali v tom chisle po natsional'nomu priznaku s nezapamyatnyx vremen. I nikomu ne prixodilo v golovu schitat' eto prestupleniem protiv chelovechestva. Prestupleniem protiv chelovechestva eto stalo za poslednie 100 let, kogda uroven' tsivilizatsii i ekonomiki podnyalsya do takogo urovnya, kogda zemlya mojet prokormit' bol'she lyudey i ubiistvo ix stanovitsya vse bolee amoral'nym. No opyat' je massovye ubiistva lyudey v Afrike (Sudane, kajetsya, a eshe eti Tutsi i Xutu) ne rojdayut togo chuvstva sostradaniya v lyudyax vsego mira kak Holocaust evreev i, v men'shey stepeni, Genocide armyan. Zdes' vo mnogom igraet uroven' tsivilizatsii, sposobnyi porodit' sostradanie. Ne zabyvayte, chto uroven' razvitiya na territorii Zapadnoy Armenii v nachale 20 veka ne byl ochen' vysokim, skajem tak. On ne byl vysokim po vsey Osmanskoy Imperii, no v Constantinopole on, konechno, byl znachitel'no vyshe, chem, skajem, v Erzerume. Poetomu ubiistvo 200 chelovek (ya vse vremya zabyvayu tochnuyu tsifru) v Constantinopole imeet sravnimyi resonance s ubiistvom 1.5 millionov v Zapadnoy Armenii. Eto uroven' progressa. My dostatochno tsivilizovanny, konechno. Bolee togo, osvobodivshis' ot turetskogo iga, my smogli prodvinut'sya mnogo dal'she i smogli dobit'sya xot' chastichnogo priznaniya Genocide-a. No smotrite, turki ubili 350 tysyach grekov i 500 tysyach assiriitsev, no ob ubiistve grekov mir znaet gorazdo bol'she, chem ob ubiistve assiriitsev. Pochemu? Greki, eto vse je greki, u nix bol'shaya community v US. Vy videli "My big fat greek wedding"? Vot vam i otvet. Vy videli kogda-nibud' film assiriiskogo rejissera? Vot. Atom Egoyan? On kamernyi rejisser, takix smotryat kinokritiki v Cannax, a eshe vsyakie intellektualy. On ne mainstream rejisser kak tot je Spielberg. Pochemu u nas net mainstream rejissera s mirovym imenem? Prosto my nedostatochno sil'ny, nedostatochno razvity dlya togo, chtoby mir priznal genocide. Est' eshe odin moment, chto vse bylo ochen' davno i ochen' malo daje fotodokumentov, net kinodokumentov. Evreyskii holocaust gorazdo luchshe dokumentirovan. Prichina - vremya i opyat' je uroven' razvitiya. Vyvod - nam nado stanovit'sya vse sil'nee i sil'nee, togda vse nakonets priznayut! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 K sojaleniyu, it is black and white. Lyudey massovo ubivali v tom chisle po natsional'nomu priznaku s nezapamyatnyx vremen. I nikomu ne prixodilo v golovu schitat' eto prestupleniem protiv chelovechestva. Prestupleniem protiv chelovechestva eto stalo za poslednie 100 let, kogda uroven' tsivilizatsii i ekonomiki podnyalsya do takogo urovnya, kogda zemlya mojet prokormit' bol'she lyudey i ubiistvo ix stanovitsya vse bolee amoral'nym. No opyat' je massovye ubiistva lyudey v Afrike (Sudane, kajetsya, a eshe eti Tutsi i Xutu) ne rojdayut togo chuvstva sostradaniya v lyudyax vsego mira kak Holocaust evreev i, v men'shey stepeni, Genocide armyan. Zdes' vo mnogom igraet uroven' tsivilizatsii, sposobnyi porodit' sostradanie. Ne zabyvayte, chto uroven' razvitiya na territorii Zapadnoy Armenii v nachale 20 veka ne byl ochen' vysokim, skajem tak. On ne byl vysokim po vsey Osmanskoy Imperii, no v Constantinopole on, konechno, byl znachitel'no vyshe, chem, skajem, v Erzerume. Poetomu ubiistvo 200 chelovek (ya vse vremya zabyvayu tochnuyu tsifru) v Constantinopole imeet sravnimyi resonance s ubiistvom 1.5 millionov v Zapadnoy Armenii. Eto uroven' progressa. My dostatochno tsivilizovanny, konechno. Bolee togo, osvobodivshis' ot turetskogo iga, my smogli prodvinut'sya mnogo dal'she i smogli dobit'sya xot' chastichnogo priznaniya Genocide-a. No smotrite, turki ubili 350 tysyach grekov i 500 tysyach assiriitsev, no ob ubiistve grekov mir znaet gorazdo bol'she, chem ob ubiistve assiriitsev. Pochemu? Greki, eto vse je greki, u nix bol'shaya community v US. Vy videli "My big fat greek wedding"? Vot vam i otvet. Vy videli kogda-nibud' film assiriiskogo rejissera? Vot. Atom Egoyan? On kamernyi rejisser, takix smotryat kinokritiki v Cannax, a eshe vsyakie intellektualy. On ne mainstream rejisser kak tot je Spielberg. Pochemu u nas net mainstream rejissera s mirovym imenem? Prosto my nedostatochno sil'ny, nedostatochno razvity dlya togo, chtoby mir priznal genocide. Est' eshe odin moment, chto vse bylo ochen' davno i ochen' malo daje fotodokumentov, net kinodokumentov. Evreyskii holocaust gorazdo luchshe dokumentirovan. Prichina - vremya i opyat' je uroven' razvitiya. Vyvod - nam nado stanovit'sya vse sil'nee i sil'nee, togda vse nakonets priznayut! aha++, vse, chto vy napisali pravilno, NO eto ne vse. My etim sebya "utishaem", tipa "inch karox eink aretsink". Ya ne govoryu, chto ne dostatochno bylo sdelano, prosto skladyvaetsya mnenie, chto "some pieces of puzzle are missing". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 (edited) I don't think it's that black and white. Perfect example of Armenian thinking. The mentality that almost killed all of us, the thinking that humans have long lost animal instinct, that things with human face cant just kill and feel good about it and other just pretend not to notice it or solve by that some nonimportant agenda or simply deep inside feel good about it. Yes, things are simple in the world, its strongest wins, its black and white except most paint themselves in other colors when needed, but us Armenians. The genocide was war between animals and Armenians, where Armenians lost because they refused to use their kill or be killed instict. Edited April 7, 2004 by TS133T Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Perfect example of Armenian thinking. The mentality that almost killed all of us, the thinking that humans have long lost animal instinct, that things with human face cant just kill and feel good about it and other just pretend not to notice it or solve by that some nonimportant agenda or simply deep inside feel good about it. Yes, things are simple in the world, its strongest wins, its black and white except most paint themselves in other colors when needed, but us Armenians. The genocide was war between animals and Armenians, where Armenians lost because they refused to use their kill or be killed instict. I don't think you understood me correctly. By saying black and white, I meant what we know so far about our battle for recognition, not about what happened. Plus, I can argue that, things aren't really that black and white, and may be not seeing the other colors almost killed us and not the other way around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 I don't think you understood me correctly. By saying black and white, I meant what we know so far about our battle for recognition, not about what happened. Plus, I can argue that, things aren't really that black and white, and may be not seeing the other colors almost killed us and not the other way around. No, we were looking for colors which didnt exist (or pretended to exist). And we still are looking for those colors by battling for recognition, because its other told us multiple times in black and white that they dont care much, there is no sorry for lose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 And we still are looking for those colors by battling for recognition, because its other told us multiple times in black and white that they dont care much, there is no sorry for lose. I agree, they don't care. But they didn't care about jews either. Jews' battle turned around differently. I know things were different for them and all that, however those who accepted their tragedy were the same people who don't care about loss. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 "I agree, they don't care. But they didn't care about jews either. Jews' battle turned around differently." They got strength and leverage by having world scared of racism and anti-Semitism and took advantage of it. "I know things were different for them and all that, however those who accepted their tragedy were the same people who don't care about loss." Those who accepted their tragedy had to, because of strong Jew lobby and movement, but deep inside still dont care. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chachanak Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 "I agree, they don't care. But they didn't care about jews either. Jews' battle turned around differently." They got strength and leverage by having world scared of racism and anti-Semitism and took advantage of it. "I know things were different for them and all that, however those who accepted their tragedy were the same people who don't care about loss." Those who accepted their tragedy had to, because of strong Jew lobby and movement, but deep inside still dont care. Armenian Lobby is the second strongest lobby in the world after Jewish Lobby. You are coming closer and closer to my point, by saying they were strong. So where were we weak and not strong? Because we didn't have a card like antisemitism to play? Kozyrei ne xvatalo? Ili my ploxo igrali? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Armenian Lobby is the second strongest lobby in the world after Jewish Lobby. You are coming closer and closer to my point, by saying they were strong. So where were we weak and not strong? Because we didn't have a card like antisemitism to play? Kozyrei ne xvatalo? Ili my ploxo igrali? Козырей мало било да и то что било не исползовали. Всё равно мы проиграли: потеряли уйму народа и земли. Евреи можно сказать выиграли: тоже потеряли уйму народа но получили государство. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aha++ Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Всё равно мы проиграли: потеряли уйму народа и земли. Евреи можно сказать выиграли: тоже потеряли уйму народа но получили государство. Pochemu proigrali? My toje poluchili gosudarstvo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Pochemu proigrali? My toje poluchili gosudarstvo. Незнаю как но я не считаю потеря всего государства и получение взамен клочка земли почти в 10 раз меньше, виигришем. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aha++ Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Незнаю как но я не считаю потеря всего государства и получение взамен клочка земли почти в 10 раз меньше, виигришем. Nu vse eshe vperedi. Nado verit' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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