The discussion about Genocide, what if Turks agree

[ozzyoi]

Phrygian,

There is truly only one way to describe you, a blood thirsty fascist. I'm not going to bother explaining the downsides of the beast you are. Tell me however, were you born this way or did you get better at it with age, much like a fine wine? Your mentality will take your people light years backwards. God save your race from your kind.

You will eventually tire from blaming others and circumstances for the state of ROA. You will eventually face the grim reality as your blinkers will unfold one day that the nation is what it is as a result of its own leaders. I will however fedex to you a container of tissues for your sooking and whining whilst you continue to finger point and blame the rest of the world for your problems.

JazzVaz,

Have you or have you not seen me admit the genocide?I believe I have. Yet you seem adament on still calling it the end of the discussion. You are confusing, but mainly yourself I think. You make it clear you've heard it all, and it's all the same. I think the number of Turks who are out their whom are recognising the genocide are growing by the day, and are wanting the resolution of this matter for the benefit of both peoples. It is evident that your minds, ears & hearts are sooooo closed that you wouldn't even hear a Turk screaming at 120 dB the want and the need to acknowledge the past and pave a peaceful way for the generations to come. This is something I can tell YOU from experience. Your kind too have nothing new to say to me that I haven't already heard, and YOU can trust me on this.

It's really not that difficult. Actions speak louder than words. Look at the actions of the Armenian Cause, is it likely to create further animosity and coldness......or is it likely to assist recognition and peace?

And no, you don't need to tell me about the tragic flaws of the policies of TC. It just seems Armenians are very informed and obsessed about the flaws of TC, yet have not a single gram of clue of their own flaws in their approach. The arena is simply not condusive for TC to recognise the genocide and both sides are guilty of creating this atmosphere. It is this atmosphere I hope one day changes. And for all those who don't believe that compromises must be made along the way by both sides, YOU are gravely mistaken. Im not saying for a moment that it is fair or unfair that they should be made. All Im saying is that they must be made, otherwise the status quo will remain for an eternity which is not something I find something to look forward to. And if anyone does, Im sure you're of the 'Phrygian kind', sharpening your knives and teeth...or you're just plain dellusional.

[voter]

ozzyoi try to be more concrete and escape the discussions of personalities.

Topics name is "What if turks agree?".

Do you try to claim that turks will not admit officially the Fact of Genocide, like Germans did, although they all know what is the truth?

Then your argumentations are very weak, if not say there are no any arguments proving, that it would be a suicide for turks to admit genocide...

As our Foreighn Minister said, turks are not brave enough to do what is in their interests.

Simple by admiting genocide turks get rid of problem which makes their life hard and noone other in thew world pine from it.

Others in the world will lost after admition from turkey the genocide, their factor of influence on turkey.

Edited November 28, 2005 by voter

[SamvelT]

To ozzyoi : the main thing , that turks don't want to understand ( or in my view understand very good ) - there is no point to bargain from armenian side . It is not a bazaar or any other kind of trade business . The civilized people must admit at whatever cost , that they did something bad . Your "kind" (excuse me , it is your way to show pressure on group of people , who disagree with you ) is trying very hard to explain to armenians about their "gravely mistakes" ... I don't think You have any right to use any word of this "kind" and tell us how much or how many mistakes we made . It is after all our problems . Turks on the other side don't have to wait for nobody to explain them their "mistakes" and I would even use word "failures" . It's their move now to become clean to their own national history and future too . I'm against any kind of pressure from anybody ( i.e. economical , political , military etc. ) . Because it becomes a "Bargain" , wich is unacceptable from the people of my "kind" . Very truly thank You for this opportunity to explain to turk a viewpoint of an armenian .

[voter]

After turks free themselfs from their nationalistic cult of Ataturk personality, they will not only themself admit the genocide, but also will call others to do that.

Edited November 28, 2005 by voter

[ozzyoi]

Voter,

You seem to believe that Turks know of this truth. Im afraid that an overwhelming majority do not. I personally cannot understand the difficulty in making an admission of such, especially if TC is not even the party liable. The fact of the matter is, as a result of the official history being taught for such an extensive period of time, to make a U turn under such circumstances is not thinkable or realistic. I don't believe not just the gvt, but neither the citizens are ready for such an admission. There reasons they are not are two-fold. Firstly they are not in the view that they have committed genocide and the historical texts solidify this further. Secondly, the hostile environment created by armenians in general does not encourage any such change. This is no longer a fact finding discussion, this is a political debate. In the heart of politics is bargaining and compromise. This is all Im saying. Also, I disagree that this situation is a result of an ataturk personality. He is dead and buried. If people in TC have not made any progress in whatever field it may be including thought. This is their own doing. They must be seen as sheep, or asleep, or naive or just plain lazy. I dont believe in blaming everything that goes wrong on the deceased.

SamelT,

My use of 'your kind' is reserved for the fascist type. I didn't think all and sundry would take ownership as I dont believe every armenian is blood thirsty. However I wasn't making any generalisations to begin with as my posts are all directed specifically towards certain people whom are clearly named.

I understand the notion of 'theres nothing to bargain' from the armenian side. And I personally don't seek any bargaining on whether it was or wasnt genocide. But I do believe it is naive to think that this is something more that a political game being played on a global platform as it stands. Reputations, pride and a whole host of factors come into play. This is something that requires a massive shake up of the whole entire TC and its people. It's a huge task because there has been a denial for 90 years. It wasn't addressed back when it could have been easy. Understand it's not easy, not just for Turks but for most peoples that would find themeselves in a similar situation.

[MiG-35]

ozzyoi, you stress the point that the turkish people (not the government) is not prepared to accept the Genocide due the many reasons you outlined: education, unawareness, historical role of Mustafa Kemal, etc.. I admit that this is a serious problem, but it stresses importance of the following two points:

1. Firstly, which is then the role of the educated Turks (especially of those in Europe or US)? Need they try to help their government to “struggle against the Genocide”, or try to educate the Turkish people? Regretfully, the 90% of the educated Turks do the first thing! Thus, your argument about the “poor people in Anatolia”, which are not prepared to accept the Genocide, seems to be rather inappropriate in the situation we have. The problem is not only in the “poor people”…

2. And secondly, during these decades we had many opportunities to observe menthal transformations of type you mentioned live: the Russians, for example, were very fond of the Communist ideology. However, they found ways to explain their “poor people in Siberia” that Lenin is not a semi-god, and the Russians accepted and recognized the crimes of the Communism… Another even better recognizable example are the German who used to be very Nazi, but who later accepted the crimes of Nazi Germany…

Examples of this sort really are many, and thus it is not very appropriate and fair from your side to try to explain the things by arguments like: “the poor people of Anatolia will not understand us”. The educated Russians or Germans were able to explain some basic things to the Russian and German peoples… You can do the same.

Just don’s try to stand behind “the poor people of Anatolia”. Stand in front of them…

[SamvelT]

To ozzyoi : You don't get it . This is not an armenian notion about bargaining . This is universal standarts . For instance : if You step on somebody's toe , I guess , You would turn and apologise , regardless of this being that persons fault running under your feet or some other form of excuse . The main issue here , that You hurt someone intentionaly or not . All the rest of circumstances do not count . The same is happening in Armenian case . I personally don't care if it's British Petroleum with the rest of their British Empire , Jews with their issues , americans or russians with their "ideas" .... or any other cause . But they had very good ground to make from Turkey a murder -"scape goat" and that's were Turkey is right now . Turkey took all responsibilities for the rest of their friends and enemies to save the territory , to create the nation , with the promise to be forgiven ... But ... Haven't You never heard from your parents or older people not to get into bad company , who can use You , and make You a bad person ? And the same parents would give You another advise : to get away from those bad guys . So it is up to You to decide , what to do after all . About armenian fascist view point ... What can You ask from victim - "scape goat " or should You blame(question) even the most extreme armenian point without analysing and making a "Peace" within your own self . And at last : The all "mighty" United States cannot defeat those native inhabbitans of their own continent from both sides of the border , because the border itself is a virtual proof of somebody's dominance over the territory but not a real , otherwise they have to turn to fascism with their "minutemen" idea to mobilize the civilians to take a law into their hands ( very soon those militias will start lynching all or some of those "Illegal mexicans" ) . Do You see any parallel with Turkey ? Or not yet ...

[ozzyoi]

Mig 35,

I don't quite understand your consant emphasizing of 'poor people in anatolia'. I don't recall using this term, and Im sorry you've misunderstood me if youve thought Ive implied it. Im not for a moment suggesting that is what they are and its sooooo hard on them etc. I have a name for them as they dont seek knowledge and iIcalled them 'sheep, or asleep, or naive or just plain lazy'. All I was saying was the fact that by far and large, they are not ready to make such a recognition. The reasons they aren't are plentifull and I guess we all know what they are. And its not just the people, the TC gvt is in the same boat. There are only 2 remaining options for the gvt and they are drawing near fast (which is a good thing). The options are they have to accept and move forward, or they will deny with proof and shock the world.

Your 2nd point is right on the money. The initiative however must be taken by the gvt for such a large movement and shift in a nations thinking. The difficulty with turk ex-pats abroad voicing such things are very difficult. The difficulty is real. It's virtually impossible to action this whilst the TC gvt has its current stance. They are barely open to the idea of talking about it.

The TC gvt and its people are beyond even the thought that their ancestors could commit such a thing. And with the armenian lobby being as aggressive as it is, all it does is place the turks into a defensive position. It cant fight it so it denies it. It cant accept it because pride wont allow it to concede when the challenge is on. It would make it look gutless to its own people. This is like a schoolyard fight. All it shows is the immaturity of dealing with confrontation. I see it as a combination of a blinding turkish pride & an armenian lack of not seeing how they are fuelling the situation away from reconciliation, not inviting it.

SamvelT,

All I was stating is that armenians have every right to say 'theres nothing to talk ( bargain ) about. It's conclusive. It is turks who are wanting to bargain. And I agree with your analogy about 'common courtesy' about stepping on someones toes.

However your parallels between the US and its indigenous inhabitants does carry in my opinion some idealistic merit. But in saying that, I think the thought is not equally applicable to turkey and armenia. So I do see some of how you see it, but not exactly like you see it.

[SamvelT]

The analogy , I used in the case of the US is a hysteria or plain nervousness from american side , as well as turkish side . That cosntant effort to make everyone around to believe , the Genocide is not a Genocide , but some form of progress . In other words both parties are trying to rationalize their past deeds , with economical (military , political ) reverances toward international opinion . Yes I'm an idealist , but i do not think that it's worse than being a cynisist even about a politics and moreover about a history . And when You have an idealist on one side and sinic ( or pragmatist ) on the other , it is not the best match for a intelligent conversation , wich both sides realize right away . In politics is good to be very well educated , not only "smart" and not only "good actor" . At the end , i would like to thank You , for very intelligent conversation . I hope more people in Turkey will try to get (truly) to the point that You already reached , i.e. understand opponents mind .

[MiG-35]

ozzyoi,

I think we have no misunderstadning in Pont 1. Well, yes, I repeated the rather symbolic phrase “poor people of Anatolia” more than once… but my point is clear: you used the argument that the people of Turkey are not prepared to accept the Genocide. And I stressed that the problem is not in that because, leaving aside the “poor people of Anatolia”, even the well educated turks in Europe or America do not seem to be prepared to recognize the Genocide…

Glad that you agree with Point 2.

***

Further, the new argument you used (= the “aggression of the Armenian lobby makes the things complcated”) does not seem to be appropriate. When you consider aggression don’t forget that Turkey keeps Armenia in a blockade (which was not opened even after that major earthquake in Armenia!). So if you call Armenian Diaspora “aggressive” (just because they write books and organize meetings about the Genocide), then… what can be called the blockade started by Turkey? Notice that by international law a blockade of one country from the side of another country is an act of war!

[Egern.net]

Hello, everybody.

This is my first post. And hope, not the last.

"What then, if Turkey will agree to accept the massacre of Armenians made in 1885-1924?"....

Very interesting and complicated question...

In my opinion the very first step after the recognition of Armenian Genocide must be the following:

When in 1921 Soviet Armenia and Turkey were discussing the Treaty of KARS (which was a "copy" of Treaty of Moscow; the latter was signed only by Russia and Turkey), Armenian side requested to give the ruins of ANI town. But it was declined by turks.

I think, that Armenia must start from a very little piece, like ANI. And then we can request for other lands too, including the lands were given to Armenia by the Treaty of SEVRES.

Are you agree with me???

--------------------

Visit our website about Armenian Genocide: www.EGERN.net

[MiG-35]

Egern.net jan, welcome to Hayastan.com

Something tells me you are going to stay here for long.

***

Անիի մասին այդ ինֆորմացին այնքան էլ ճիշտ չէ: Տես Վրացյանի “Հայաստանի Հանրապետության” Հավելվածներ բաժինը: Անիի մասին առաջարկությունը արել է անդրկովկասյան հանրապետություների անունից Գանեցկին: Սակայն թուրքերը մերժել են ասելով, որ դա Մոսկվայի պայմանագրի խախտում կլինի…

Սատկին...

[voter]

Hello, everybody.

This is my first post. And hope, not the last.

Very interesting and complicated question...

In my opinion the very first step after the recognition of Armenian Genocide must be the following:

When in 1921 Soviet Armenia and Turkey were discussing the Treaty of KARS (which was a "copy" of Treaty of Moscow; the latter was signed only by Russia and Turkey), Armenian side requested to give the ruins of ANI town. But it was declined by turks.

I think, that Armenia must start from a very little piece, like ANI. And then we can request for other lands too, including the lands were given to Armenia by the Treaty of SEVRES.

Are you agree with me???

--------------------

Visit our website about Armenian Genocide: www.EGERN.net

Truth and justice couldn't be a little bit and piece by piece.

To acceptance of Genocide must and will follow the rehabilitation of full rights for armenians - former citizens of Turkey on their lands ALL lands without exceptions.

AS A CITIZENS of Turkey they could then deside to take their lands and go away or stay as a part of Republic Turkey. But this depends on what kind of country will Turkey be...

Forgot about SEVER or Kars or any other agreements, as I wrote in first part of the topic - they are all made on interests of THIRD countries and no one have FULL SET of elected representatives of all nations in region.

Noone of that agreements have to be forced - a new one must be agreed...

[Egern.net]

To MiG-35

Անիի մասին այդ ինֆորմացին այնքան էլ ճիշտ չէ: Տես Վրացյանի “Հայաստանի Հանրապետության” Հավելվածներ բաժինը: Անիի մասին առաջարկությունը արել է անդրկովկասյան հանրապետություների անունից Գանեցկին: Սակայն թուրքերը մերժել են ասելով, որ դա Մոսկվայի պայմանագրի խախտում կլինի…

Սատկին...

Ես միանգամայն համամիտ եմ. թուրքերը դա մերժեցին, պատճառաբանելով, որ դա կլինի Մոսկվայի պայմանագրի խախտում, իսկ նրանք ռուսների հետ որոշել էին Կարսում "կրկնել" Մոսկվայի պայմանագիրը:

To VOTER

To acceptance of Genocide must and will follow the rehabilitation of full rights for armenians - former citizens of Turkey on their lands ALL lands without exceptions.

- I quite agree here.

But when you say

AS A CITIZENS of Turkey they could then deside to take their lands and go away…

I can’t agree with you, because we have an example of Kurds. Turkish diplomacy, in my view, will never give autonomy or something like this to anyone.

this depends on what kind of country will Turkey be...

Exactly. But Turkey won’t be a “good” country, it won’t be changed. It has been so since 14th century, when Ottoman Empire appeared.

And my opinion is that we can get some lands only by little pieces. Turkey won’t give us more…

[ozzyoi]

Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones.

Edited December 5, 2005 by ozzyoi

[SamvelT]

Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones.

For ordinary situations - not , maybe ... But Genocide is not ordinary case whatsoever , so we know it and turks know it and British Petroleum along with anybody else , know it too ... There is no emotions , there is just effort from opponent's side to rationalize ( justify ) their "mistake" . So ...

[voter]

Someone please assist me to understand this giving back of land. What legal grounds can land be given back? Are there any modern day precedents of such that can be shown as examples that are similar to the issues relating to armenians and turks? Im really looking for some modern day & relevant technical and legal contributions, and not emotional ones.

Any jews in the world is contingental citizen of Germany as a contribution to Holocaust.

What's mean any jew could apply and get a permanent residence in Germanyand after 8-10 years get a citizenship.

The one, who lost his rights, lands, houses or fortune during Holocaust or their direct offspring will get back their lands, houses or a compensation for it and could have a citizenschip of Germany immediately....

Jews are allowed to have jewisch schools, they have even a jewisch University in Germany...

This is mean, that they became a citizenschip of Germany, when they deside to come back to Germany and don't mean, automatically, that they get a right to declare a new Israel on their returned lands.

But if they will get their citizenship back and follow all the laws of Germany for declaration of a new land, it could theoretically be done. But nobody wants today to get detached form EU, opposite - all are wanting to join EU, Israel as well, who is main interested party in the game "Turkey member of EU", which will make the entrace of Israel to EU easy...

Same system of contingental citizenschip for any Armenian will follow to recognition of Genocide and so on (see abovementioned system)....

[voter]

I feel sad,for Armenians,who are ready to forgive Turkey for only a piece of their land, like a pice of Capital city Ani or a piece of Mount Ararat....

We need full rights of use for all former Armenian lands...

I also feel sad for that my compatriots, who think "The contribution for Genocide must be in form of tearing away of some lands from Turkey and joining them to modern Republic of Armenia"...

Any kind of agreements about borders between Armenia and Turkey, couldn't be considered as a contribution for Genocide.

Up to now there were no any eligible agreement signed by eligible representatives of turks and armenians. First of all a peace agreement must be signed between them and then borders must be discussed as a political act and part of general agreement of peace between representatives of two countries, where by the way not only armenians and turks live.

Genocide is completly other song and much more important question than a reshaping of borders.

Genocide is a problem of republic turkey and all his former citizens - armenian, greek,assyrian nationalities and no any other country could profit from recognition of Genocide except turkey and the ones who gave refugee to former turkisch citizens and their offsprings...

[ozzyoi]

Thanks to everyone who responded and tried to help me. Ive realised I needed to further clarify my question. Im aware of the type of measures and steps that must be taken in order to make the wrong right. However, the examples and precedents I was looking for were more along the lines of TC compensating for acts of a different entity in the ottoman empire? I have no interest in debating the connections or separations between the 2 entities, needless to say legally and technically I dont believe one can argue that they are the same.

Whereas with the jewish holocaust, the german state seems to have greater continuity with the one existant today.

My seeking for information was more based on this notion.

[voter]

Thanks to everyone who responded and tried to help me. Ive realised I needed to further clarify my question. Im aware of the type of measures and steps that must be taken in order to make the wrong right. However, the examples and precedents I was looking for were more along the lines of TC compensating for acts of a different entity in the ottoman empire? I have no interest in debating the connections or separations between the 2 entities, needless to say legally and technically I dont believe one can argue that they are the same.

Whereas with the jewish holocaust, the german state seems to have greater continuity with the one existant today.

My seeking for information was more based on this notion.

I think you forgot a small but important moment - if one do not want to be considered as a continuity of his criminal forefather, he could repudiate from that forefather or condemn all bad actions made by forefather.

What turkey do since ataturk reforms - sings a song about "big" and "good name" turkish nation coming from aincent ages, "giving" civilisation to other nations of middle east, great kemal ata of all turks and so on.... All this fairy tales are not compatible with a condemnation of forfathers and moreover repudiation form forfathers will make them joung but not aincent nation...

This principal contradicion coming from turkish propaganda must be stoped, then the condemnation all bad actions made by their forefathers will be easy...

So in short - tuks declare, that ottoman empire is not their forfather, when people point on bad doings of that empire and when it is favorable turks declare themselfs as a offspring of ottoman empire to claima rights on all history and territories formally under the ottoman empire...

[Egern.net]

Dear VOTER

Amenian Genocide MUST BE RECOGNIZED AND CONDEMNED as the WORST CRIME in human history.

The history showed, that the uncondemned crime causes new crimes. The best example, as you know, is Holocaust. And Genocide must be recognized as crime of the whole world, because the Genocide was done because of silence of great countries (Russia, Britain...).

But we must remember, that the result of Genocide was the enlargement of Armenian Diaspora. As you said, the first step after recognition must be the resettlement of Armenians in Western Armenia. Finally. we expect to create a UNITED Armenia, which will contain ALL Armenian lands, as it was in ancient times (especially in 80-55 B.C.).

In my view, the best method of creating United Armenia will be the enlargement of modern Republic of Armenia. Russian proverb says: "Тихо едешь, дальше будешь". We must go with small, but sure steps...

BUT ARMENIAN GENOCIDE WILL NEVER BE FORGIVED.

P>S> Sorry, if my English isn't good.

[voter]

In my view, the best method of creating United Armenia will be the enlargement of modern Republic of Armenia. Russian proverb says: "Тихо едешь, дальше будешь". We must go with small, but sure steps...

Nobody has a perfect englisch and moreover we want to speak here about contents and nobody must care about make-up...

Nice that you got the point, that Genocide must be considered in bigger aspects as of reshaping of any borders...

The United Armenia is fully other story and offtopic for Genocide recognition. Sure armenians are strong enough to develope and settle big territories, as well asimilate other nations and this was and are known for turks,thatwhy they donot want to let armenians freely live in their countries - fear of giving away controls of country incite not only turks up to now oppress armenians, not leting armenians take a part in developement and control of their countries.

And I understand, thatwhy it is sometime necessary to build an own country then nobody will violate your freedoms.

But one need his separate United Armenia only in case of impossibility of realisation of his power. In case of Turkey I hope to have peaceful solution, when EU will finish the reformation of that country and there will be no necessity to build a separate Armenia, turks will became unimportant and controled from Brusel nation,with agricultural sector of economics,that lives only becasue of donations from developed countries of EU, like a spain.

But if turkey will stay the same we, like in case of first Armenian Republic in 1918 with Sardarapat battle and in Arcax in 1994, we can take by ourselfs, what we need. I feel sad that this way costs manpower and we do not have so much,that manpower must work and develope more important things, than teach turks respect the right of other nations.

[ozzyoi]

Hi everyone,

Voter,

I agree with you on many points you raise regarding how turks can come to terms and move forward with the genocide. The only point I think you're overlooking however is that this is not a discussion about ethnic continuity. This is about the continuity of a State. It is not about the wrongdoings of an entire race. This would be a tragic generalisation of epic proportions that will lead to nowhere fast.

I get the feeling that some people are just 'hoping' TC will recognise, apologise and return whatever needs to be returned. If you are talking about posessions such as homes, land etc...this is one thing. Whether TC chooses to separate themselves from their forefathers (ottomans) on a spiritual level or not, the reality is that the 2 are unquestionably separate entities. This is the basis on which I am asking my question. On what legalities or modern precedents are there for 1 state/entity to be liable for the crimes of another state/entity. Guys, let's really put the emotional and moralistic stuff aside and have a technical & legal discussion here. After all, this is an issue that will be one day (hopefully soon) discussed, negotiated and resolved on legalities, not emotions.

As for this talk about a re-unified or greater Armenia. I don't really wish to discuss this topic. This idea in my opinion is as comical as Turanism which I also laugh at. These are lovely idealistic, nationalistic, patriotic and warming thoughts and emotions. But also incredibly naive and not in touch with reality. Hey, but this is only my opinion so yeh, carry on.

[voter]

Whether TC chooses to separate themselves from their forefathers (ottomans) on a spiritual level or not, the reality is that the 2 are unquestionably separate entities. This is the basis on which I am asking my question. On what legalities or modern precedents are there for 1 state/entity to be liable for the crimes of another state/entity.....

ozzy sure there is no legalities due to which any state must be liable for the crimes of other state. Germany is not the one who had to take a responsibilities for crimes of Natzi Empire of Hitler, but they did it, otherwise it would be not possible to change the mentality of germans fully damaged with nationalism....

It is not so important, do turkey want to be considered as same state how ottoman empire or declare themselfs as a something new, the question is what stops them simply condem the crimes, whether it was OTHER state or the same?!

Recognition of genocide worldwide from countries even do not existing at that time, is just shows, that it is easy to condemn a crime made in ottoman empire...

What I want to point out, that turkey must choose between past and future. For a moment because of stubbornness, turkey looks like a country for which one couldn't apply the modern precedents, not because of they are not able to be moder, but they do not want to be a one...

Who do not want that turkey be considered as a modern country without any problems and debts? - I am sure,not the ones who live and want to live in turkey....

I know the turks who understand, that they will not lost anything by recognition of Genocide, will be considered moreless intelligent.

It is much more easy to control a country, who scares, that you can ask for giving back the debts...

Edited December 8, 2005 by voter

[Kars]

Ozzyoi, it is good to see Turks visiting this forum and trying to open a dialog on this very touchy subject. I wish there were more Turkish posters – as long as such participation does not involve expressions of outright hatred and hostility (which is often the case with many Azeri interlopers).

Anyway.

I read your posts, and am somewhat confused. What exactly are you trying to say? You seem to be eloquent in English, and yet fail to make a point and express your thoughts and suggestions clearly and definitively. At least that’s how I see it, so far. Based on what I’ve read, you:

(1) suggest that it is practically impossible for Turks, as a group of people, admit realities of the past – due to some ”national pride”, or whatever you call it;

(2) accuse Armenians for pushing too hard on this issue – thus creating and maintaining tension between the two peoples and governments;

(3) try to clear the modern Turkish state of any culpability regarding tragic events which took place in former Ottoman Empire;

(4) insist that there are no historical and/or legal precedents of border changes (or adjustments), as far as legality of such changes, within the spectrum of international law, is concerned.

Please correct me on these four points and let me know if I misunderstood you. If you confirm that there is, in fact, no misunderstanding or misinterpreting of your posts, I’ll continue on this subject and shall try to put forth my personal point of view, which, I am convinced, resonates with many Armenians (and I must insert the following disclaimer, before we went any further: I am not speaking, and cannot be speaking, on behalf of all Armenians; whatever I say is my own, personal point of view).

Edited December 7, 2005 by kars