Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk

[Armenia_Turkey_peace]

Hello, everyone.I have newly registered.I am a Turkish guy from Istanbul, Turkey. I want to express my thoughts on the genocide issue and other issues. As you know, the Turkish governments over the years have denied that a genocide ever happened to Armenians.However, in recent years, mainly due to the positive effect of EU membership application, freedom of expression sitation has gotten better in Turkey and so a lot of people in Turkey have been able to express their thoughts on various media regarding the genocide. Of course unfortunately some of those peope were taken to court.The effect of nationalist ideoogy is still strong in Turkey. However I don't think we need to be pessimistic that one day Turkey will at least accept that 'atrocities' happened against the Armenians and at least will offer some kind of apology.I personally feel very bad about what happened to Armenians back then. The personal stories are really tragic. Not only deaths and injuries but also loss of property and having to leave one's home is very tragic.Some stuff I learned recently really made me cry.But please don't blame all Turkish peoeple and don't have a grudge against Turks in general because of what happened back then. Okay, you can rightly have a hard feeling against Turks (and others)who blindly continue to deny what happened and those who say racist things against Armenians. And one more thing, please don't forget that some people here are not able to have access to some sources and the Internet. They just know what has been taught to them in elementary/secondary school and assume that all is true. Also, over the years, people here have been exposed to nationalist ieology regarding many issues and so they accept all that without questioning it.I myself am againt ALL types of nationalist ideology, Turkish, Armenian, American, Kenyan or whatever ! Nationalism is a very unhumanist ideology. I continue to fight Turkish (and others) nationalists in some forums and speak out against them. Of course I have become unpopular with many such people because of that I am also saddened that some people here on this forum praise the terrorist organisation ASALA. I hope humanist Armenians will fight such ideology too. Armenians should teach their children about what happened BUT must not preach hatred against Turks in general.I really want good realations between Turkey and Armenia. Hatred should NOT continue. It must stop from both sides. There are already so many bad issues in the world, such as wars, destruction of nature, extinction of many animal species and famine. We humsn beings must strive together to fight such things. There is no place for blind hatred in our world. What good is it going to bring ?I will give you two examples of racism/discrimination; one from Turks against Armenians and the other from Armenians against Turks. Both these really made me quite sad and angry. In a chat room, one Turkish guy said 'I love all people except Armenians' and then continued his nasty words. And, then my other example : I planned on going to Armenia last year on holiday and I was doing some research on touristy places. I came across a Web site of a pub in Yerevan. As I was reading some stuff there, in the section about music, it said 'We play all kinds of music, except Turkish music'. That is discrimination extended to culture/music. Very sad ! Of course this put me off from going there. I know that I shouldn't generalise but then, I was just worried what response I might get from people in Armenia just due to my nationality.I repeat : Nationalism is an ideology that must be fought against.I know that I might unfortunately attract some bad responses because of what I wrote here (mainly my strong views against nationalism). Anyway, I hope that I won't be insulted here just because I am Turkish.I actually hope I can contribute to this forum and who knows, I might build some friendship with some people here, and who knows, I might get to meet some people face to face, either in Turkey or in Armenia.Cheers,Bora

[Kars]

Hello, everyone. [...]Anyway, I hope that I won't be insulted here just because I am Turkish. [...]Cheers,Bora

Hello, Bora.No one is insulted here because of his or her national origin. In fact, your notion was already somewhat insulting. :)Welcome to the Forum. Hope we can have a rational discussion.

[Armenia_Turkey_peace]

Hello, Bora.No one is insulted here because of his or her national origin. In fact, your notion was already somewhat insulting. :)Welcome to the Forum. Hope we can have a rational discussion.

Thanks, Kars. Well, I had just written that in the hope that there wouldn't be any discrimination shown towards me. The ASALA thread and some people's signatures there made me upset.But, that's okay. Every country and therefore many forums have extreme nationalists writing in them. I will try not to get discouraged or too upset by that.And...sure, we can have a rational discussion...no problem there, I think :)I wish I could understand/write Armenian. I've even got a book here for learning Armenian. However, it seems sooooooo difficult to learn for someone used to Latin letters.I try to buy the weekly newspaper, Agos, regularly here. It comes out every Friday. It is primarily for the Armenian community here. But all of it is in Turkish language except two Armenian-language pages. I like that paper because it is anti-nationalist/anti-fascist and humanist. There are also two daily newspapers, Marmara and Jamanak. But I don't buy them because they are completely in the Armenian language :)Thanks to Agos, I learned a lot of things about the Armenian community here and also many new things about the past events. Cheers,Bora Edited July 25, 2006 by Armenia_Turkey_peace

[Kars]

Thanks, Kars. Well, I had just written that in the hope that there wouldn't be any discrimination shown towards me.

There we go again… It's becoming boring already.So far the only discrimination was expressed by YOU.But, whatever – you are a newcomer and probably feel somewhat insecure in an Armenian forum.Don’t.Let me advise you: this is an open-minded forum and absolutely all points of view are respected here. If you have anything to say on the topic – you are welcome to do so.And another neighborly advice: don’t ever read Istanbul Armenian newspapers – you’ll be fooled. (with all due respect to editors of Zhamanag, Marmara and Agos)

[Armenia_Turkey_peace]

Well, dear Kars, I don't know about the Marmara and Jamanak newspapers because they are not in Turkish language but I think Agos is quite an objective newspaper. Maybe it doesn't openly say what happened was genocide but it criticises the nationalist ideology and those who deny things about the past blindly.It also gives space to personal tragedies of the past. What really touched my heart was the personal tragedies.Maybe I cannot really understand the mentality and thoughts of people who had family members who died or suffered from the atrocities of the past....but please know that I am trying to understand and sympathise. I just feel that this should not give way to hatred. By the way, whether I myself personally would call the atrocities a 'genocide' or not....would that be very important to you ? Yes, I think they PROBABLY constitute genocide. Taner Akcam, a Turkish academician and journalist writing for Agos calls it a genocide and he gives arguments for it quite clearly. The important thing is that they were crimes against humanity and I am angry at the past and current governments of my country for hiding and denying things. But what can I do personally ? Go to the parliament building and raise a sign saying 'Accept genocide/atrocities against Armenians !' ? I would possibly be beaten up there and then maybe jailed What else can I do ? Leave Turkey as a protest ?Anyway, cheers to all....having a glass of Efes Pilsen beer now :)Bora

[MiG-35]

Bora,

Can I ask you: are there many young Turks who think like you do? Have you had opportunities to discuss this problem with your friends?

[vovchik]

Thanks, Kars. Well, I had just written that in the hope that there wouldn't be any discrimination shown towards me. The ASALA thread and some people's signatures there made me upset.

hi Bora.

please try to understand that ASALA was and always will be a symbol of a national spirit and resistance in years of Soviet dominance. years when Armenia was not fully independent and couldn't raise, express the issue that hurt almost every single Armenian family.

it's like Palestinian suiciders being called terrorists by Israelis, but martyrs by Palestinians. they too had no country and a government. it is people's way of express their frustration in absence of a real power to change anything, get attention to the problem.

as soon as Armenia got independent (3d republic) all that ideology gone, perished in thin air. just the way it appeared in 70-80s.

you sound like a real nice guy. i actually had a few Turkish friends here in London. nice guys. you too probably lived, studied abroad for some time. i can only hope that those who never leave Turkey don't get brain washed the way it works in Azerbaijan nowadays.

hope to hear from you soon.

thanks

[Kars]

Well, ASALA is often discussed in Turkish and Azeri forums. I don’t quite understand Bora’s surprise to see a similar topic in an Armenian forum.

Besides, I strongly doubt that Bora can understand what is written and what opinions are expressed in that topic. By his/her own admission, Bora can’t read Armenian or Russian.

[Armenia_Turkey_peace]

Hi again, folks. Sorry for the delay.

Well...my comments and answers to the 3 posters who wrote after my last message are as below :

*MiG-35 : Well, I cannot give you a percentage of the young Turks who think like I do However I can easily guess that unfortunately I am in the minority. How much of a minority my thoughts are, that, I don't know of course.

I don't really get opportunities to discuss this with friends outside (i.e. non-cyberworld) because my friends are quite non-political people. But I get a chance to discuss this with Turkish folks on the Internet. I have come across people who think like me but I have also been called bad names because of my thoughts.

*vovchik : Thanks for the background info on ASALA. Also, thanks for your nice comments.

As for the brainwashing issue, well yes, that unfortunately occurs here in Turkey too...just as the case is in some other countries (especially those which have had many wars and troubles in their histories).

Of course, it is needless to say that in Turkish textbooks, there is no mention of any atrocities or even anything remotely related to about what happened to Armenians in and around 1915. I wish I could be optimistic about a possible change (regarding this issue) in the near future but I am not. Right-wing nationalist rhetoric is still very strong here. Nationalism is an ideology/thought that is unfortunately difficult to shake off for people throughout the world. For example, even the private TV channels here often glorify nationalism unfortunately. Of course the development of the Internet has helped educate some people.

Facing the past in a true and humanist way will unfortunately not happen in Turkey in the foreeseeable future. I am sorry to be pessimistic about this. I wish I could be optimistic but these are my thoughts.

The only thing I can expect is for SOME change in the offical and general public thought. Even the acknowledgment that the Ittihat and Terakki government of 1915 had done many inhumane things and that these should not have been done would be good for a start. Of course, the opening of the Turkey-Armenia

border would help improve Turkey-Armenia relations. My government/s should stop blindly supporting Azerbaijan in almost every issue.

*kars : You are right. I shouldn't have made a judgment on that stuff because as you wrote, I cannot understand Armenian or Russian.

By the way, do all of you speak/understand Russian well ? Is Russian still taught at the primary school level in Armenian schools ? Or, for example, are there young people in Armenia now who cannot understand Russian at all ?

Cheers,

Bora

[Vardan]

Most of the users speak Russian and/or Armenian, but there are lot's of people who speak / understand English. So you don't have to feel left out.

[voter]

Hello Bora this could be interesting for you http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=1436

[133mmx]

there was a topic named Alternative Thought but i can't find it.

this is an open-minded forum and absolutely all points of view are respected here

i will be in doubt about your reliability if the topic was deleted...

[Celtic]

Nationalism is wrong! After the boundaries of the Treaty of Sevres are internationally recognised.

[voter]

there was a topic named Alternative Thought but i can't find it.

i will be in doubt about your reliability if the topic was deleted...

That topic was deleted, as of the statement topic starter made "In history, there isnt a massacre of Armenians which is done by Turks. " is amoral.

By our Forum rules - direct or indirect denial of Genocide of Armenians in Turkey is forbidden.

There are no armenians who will respond to people, that deny Genocide.

If France, Germany, Swiss punish people who try to deny the fact of Genocide, we must do even more so.

[133mmx]

That topic was deleted, as of the statement topic starter made "In history, there isnt a massacre of Armenians which is done by Turks. " is amoral.

So you are not open-mined. It is a thought, not a verb.Then you can't blame Turks for punishing people who accept Armenian Genocide. Also saying people "murderrer" is amoral.

[voter]

So you are not open-mined. It is a thought, not a verb. Then you can't blame Turks for punishing people who accept Armenian Genocide. Also saying people "murderrer" is amoral.

If you want to speak about situation in Turkey, about that the facts of history of Turkey between 1905 and 1923 are deleted from books and young generation is always informed about "great turkish nation" and their "great father Mustafa kemal", that is another question.

But once more - the fact, that Genocide happened is out of discussion, open-mined do not mean readyness to change history.

It is at least ridiculous, if accessory like Germans accept his complicity, but Turkey still crying "we are great nation who incapable of make massacre".

[voter]

The problem in turkey are nationalists, who want personal leadership for lands from Ararat till Mediterranean Sea.

This must be changed and not history.

Nobody can change the past - Turkey need new feuture and not new past.

Not only armenians want to hear from turks convictions of crime happened in 19th and 20th centuries, independently who and how it call. Then one can said - Turkey is a country where nobody must scare for his life just being NON turk.

But new non-kemalian internation future nationalists do not want and if you want to go into future with nationalist ideas of mustafa kemal and write a new virgin history and build a turkey with a "great nation of turks" ONLY, nothing will help you, even if all the world will decide to rewrite their books of history.

[Muza voina]

Hi, Bora,

I guess, the problem of Genocide is a close one in Turkey, I feel, there are a lot of people, wich never listen of Genoside, are`nt they?

[Kars]

So you are not open-mined. It is a thought, not a verb.Then you can't blame Turks for punishing people who accept Armenian Genocide. Also saying people "murderrer" is amoral.

Our open-mindedness stops, as it should, at the borderline of decency and indecency (if you know what ”decency” is). Beyond that line there is no discussion.

For the same reason open discussions about homosexual sex, for example, are not allowed here.

Genocide deniers do not belong to the category of decent people and are simply not welcomed here – just like perverts of any other kind are not welcomed here.

Discussing the Genocide with Genocide deniers is similar to discussing family values with a street prostitute. Open-mindedness has nothing to do with it.

[133mmx]

Discussing the Genocide with Genocide deniers is similar to discussing family values with a street prostitute

You can think like that.

at least, by help of deleted writing,your forum readers get an opinion what turks think about armenian genocide.

i won't write again about open-mindedness. our views don't fit.

[voter]

You can think like that.

at least, by help of deleted writing,your forum readers get an opinion what turks think about armenian genocide.

i won't write again about open-mindedness. our views don't fit.

How I or anybody else believe on existence of open-minded turks, when we not only in history, but everyday feeling a hate against us.

The only one who don't want a discussion and trying to delete posts and opinions are some dummy turkish hakcers, who every half a year attacking our portal and very oft deleted topics and discussions on our forum.

No any other forum at least armenian, got attacked so oft as our.

Even just now from TURKEY an attack is going on already 3rd day.

[Hawk]

Even just now from TURKEY an attack is going on already 3rd day.

[Kars]

You can think like that.

at least, by help of deleted writing,your forum readers get an opinion what turks think about armenian genocide.

i won't write again about open-mindedness. our views don't fit.

Well, even if our views don’t fit, there is still room for discussion, but only within the frames of discussion – without going into slander.

Anyone is welcome to discuss the historical events, recent news and to share opinions – including you. However, to explicitly deny the fact of the Genocide is simply prohibited by the Forum Rules.

In fact, Section 3.3.9. of the Rules states:

[Prohibited in the Forum]:

3.3.9. Direct or indirect denial of the fact of the Armenian Genocide.

(Soon we’ll have an English-language version of the Rules, so everyone can have a better understanding how this forum works).

[Armenia_Turkey_peace]

How I or anybody else believe on existence of open-minded turks, when we not only in history, but everyday feeling a hate against us.

So...you put ALL the Turks into one category and say that NONE of them is open-minded and that ALL of them hate Armenians....come on, I can't believe you sincerely think like that.

I have often fought against my own countrymen who wrote racist things against Armenians. Would you fight

against your own countrymen who write racist things against Turks ?

Believe me...the majority of Turks don't hate Armenians. It is just that the discussion of Armenian genocide has been made a very sensitive topic here in Turkey (the effect of education is important here).

I feel that some ultra-nationalist Armenians want to think that all Turks hate Armenians so that they can put Turks into one category and hate them all together. There are also such people here in Turkey too...they want to put Armenians into one category and hate them all together. All this is very sad !

And.....no, dear Voter, maybe you want me to be someone who is full of hatred...but no, I am not....NOT AT ALL...JUST THE OPPOSITE.... In fact, I would sincerely fight for peace between Turkey and Armenia, as my user name indicates.

If you are really a humanist, let's together fight against racists and ultra-nationalists from both sides.

But, of course I accept that my government has to accept what hapepned in the past...see, now, many Turks who read this will hate me and call me a 'traitor'. I feel that what happened back then were definitely 'atrocities'....whether we should call them a 'genocide' is another matter...but hey, before you get angry, at me I want to say that I feel that they were MOST PROBABLY a genocide.

Peace !

Bora

Edited September 30, 2006 by Armenia_Turkey_peace

[Kars]

Believe me...the majority of Turks don't hate Armenians.

I will agree with you on this one. But your comparison (Armenian attitude towards Turks and vice versa) is invalid and worthless. There is a victim/perpetrator issue, don’t you agree? You can’t equate the two.

But, anyway… I’ve been in Turkey many times, and I am in agreement with you that the majority of Turks don’t hate Armenians outright. I would rather call their attitude towards non-local Armenians (like myself) “indifferent”, often times – “curious”, and that’s about it.

I noticed that educated people in Turkey are more inclined to talk about our problems in a friendly manner and don’t usually exhibit hostility. In the countryside (outside major cities) the situation is a bit different – curiosity takes over. Occasionally I encountered hostility, but it was very rare.

The same thing could be said about Armenian attitude towards Turks. As you may well know, Turkish citizens regularly visit Armenia, there are even some Turkish-owned businesses in Armenia. I don’t think they feel uncomfortable there, on personal level.

Recognition of the Genocide is rather a moral issue, which had been politicized over the years. Both Armenians and Turks are there to live next to each other for centuries to come. However, some moral issues have to be settled. Don’t you think so?

Now, the ball is in your court.