ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Guys, we need to move on and try to facilitate our relations with our neighbors including Turkey. If you look in the culture we have many common things with this nation and most inportant one the history. It is true that we had survived very bad events especially in 1915. But before that let's remember that we were privileged ethnicity in Ottoman Turkey and we had relatively good life. Every normal person in current Turkey of course would accepts that what happened in 1915 was very bad unacceptable unhumane thing. Forget about everything only the idea of deportation is bad enough to be unacceptable as a solution for preventing the national movement of Armenians. Yet using the word "genocide" for describing these vents seems very "strong" to today's Turks. Of course, the rulers of the time are guilty for everything they have done. But implying the word "genocide" to condemn a whole nation seems unacceptable by most of the modern Turks. Because, there has never been a hatered against Armenians in Ottoman period until the uprise of Armenians in the beginning of 20th century. And that is because as everybody would expect a reflex reaction to something unexpected. Turks were not as shocked by the efforts of Greek or Bulgarians to liberate as the Armenian movement mostly because as everyone knows they were proclaimed "milleti-i sadika" (Loyal nation) by the Ottoman authority for centuries. They were able to get very high ranks in the Ottoman hierarchy. Most of the famous Ottoman composers were Armenians. That's why the Armenian uprise was cosidered more like a betrayal by the Ottomans. Especially, affter the relation of Armenian patriots with Russians became more evident. But may be another solution for Armenians was not present who knows. So, even liberation movement can be accepted by most of the people as a natural right especially after the nationalism has been put in the stage at the end of 19th century we shouldn't forget that a ruler would do everything to keep its country united and would use force if needed as all the rulers would do. So both sides had their rightful motives for action in this unfortunate time. And that conflict lead to the awful events that everybody knows. But let see today we are 90 years away. And we are still discussing the same things and we would insist with hate and anger about the things that wouldn't change anything any more. That thing would only prolong our own problems in the region. Look at our region - we are isolated, we are stuck in our own chians of hatered. Time to move on and do good things for our nation right now and for the future. Let's get rid of the bad memories that brings us in a vicious cycle of hatered. Don't forget get lessons, but don't forget that even lessons last for 45 mins at school then you go and learn something else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Соломон Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 (edited) If you look in the culture we have many common things with this nation У турков разве есть культура? Как же может быть "много общего" с тем, чего просто нет? Как вообще можно сравнивать богатейшую армянскую культуру с несуществующей турецкой? Yet using the word "genocide" for describing these vents seems very "strong" to today's Turks. Of course, the rulers of the time are guilty for everything they have done. But implying the word "genocide" to condemn a whole nation seems unacceptable by most of the modern Turks. Вещи надо называть своими именами. Почти полное уничтожение армянского населения Турции есть типичный случай геноцида, вне зависимости от того, нравится это современным туркам или нет. But let see today we are 90 years away. And we are still discussing the same things... Преступления против человечества не имеют срока давности! ...a ruler would do everything to keep its country united and would use force if needed as all the rulers would do... Никакими соображениями государственной безопасности нельзя оправдать уничтожение целого народа. Но туркам этого, увы, не понять. Потому что они турки, т.е. народ-убийца, недочеловеки, которых надо уничтожать как тараканов, дихлофосом... Edited December 15, 2003 by Соломон Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 Dear Solomon, it seems that this message hit you very hard. I am sorry. But of course every nation has culture, even Turks. The definition that you use is may be superior culture. Well, I am not from these people that think that they have the prioroty to consider his/her culture being superior to others. These times are over my friend since Hitler died. The respect is which keeps different people together. But I hardly believe that you could handle to respect Turks. I don't know how many Turks you have seen in your life but I have seen at least couple and they seemed humans to me. They don't have horns as many think. They are as you and me. They sometimes can even think for your surprise, but they do. But tell me this what you will gain from this national hatered? This is poisoning us, and younger generations are more affected somehow more that the actual victims. Do you think it is a matter of nation. I doubt, because Turks were not nation until may be 1930's. So we have to calm down and think with enthusiasm for our future. It is difficult to respect these people but we can learn, and that is going to make us superior and wise culture. Best regards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 So, what's your point Historian? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xes Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 So, what's your point Historian? I don't know what his point is, but clearly the choice of "language" to communicate such a crap is poor as he could use his Russian more efficiently. But crap is a crap, no matter how he would want to shape it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 The point is let's unite our efforts for the happiness of our nation, let's have our Armenian Diaspora come to Armenia, let them help us with our economy. They have lot of influence abroad. Let them make enterprises in Armenia, make jobs for our people. People need hope and ideals to struggle for. Young people need to stay in this country and work to make it a part of the developed world. Unfortunately, now Turks are in better condition than us in terms of economy and international reputation. Let us be better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TS133T Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 The point is let's unite our efforts for the happiness of our nation, let's have our Armenian Diaspora come to Armenia, let them help us with our economy. They have lot of influence abroad. Let them make enterprises in Armenia, make jobs for our people. People need hope and ideals to struggle for. Young people need to stay in this country and work to make it a part of the developed world. Unfortunately, now Turks are in better condition than us in terms of economy and international reputation. Let us be better. I dont mind that. But what forgiving, respecting turks or befriending them has anything to do with prosperity of Armenians? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Соломон Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 (edited) Dear Solomon, it seems that this message hit you very hard. I am sorry. Good! But of course every nation has culture, even Turks. Да, вы абсолютно правы! Есть своя культура даже у папуасов. Но неужели для вас наскальные граффити представляют такой же эстетический интерес, как фрески Микельанджело? (см.: http://www.krotov.org/spravki/persons/16pe.../1564mike.html) Well, I am not from these people that think that they have the prioroty to consider his/her culture being superior to others. These times are over my friend since Hitler died. А вот здесь вы глубоко заблуждаетесь, мой англоязычный друг. Мне не составит большого труда доказать вам, что, например, русская культура во много десятков раз превосходит так называемую турецкую. У турков никогда не было своего Достоевского. И никогда не будет. But I hardly believe that you could handle to respect Turks. I don't know how many Turks you have seen in your life but I have seen at least couple and they seemed humans to me. Уважать турков не за что. Это только любовь бывает слепа. Мне же дела нет никакого до ваших турков. Я их действительно не видел и видеть не желаю. Но я охотно допускаю, что даже башибузука можно нарядить в европейский костюм, так что он с расстояния будет походить на человека. Я даже думаю, что и обезьяну можно с тем же успехом нарядить человеком. Но проблема-то в том и состоит, что обезьяна никогда человеком не станет. Вам не кажется? Turks were not nation until may be 1930's. So we have to calm down and think with enthusiasm for our future. It is difficult to respect these people but we can learn, and that is going to make us superior and wise culture. Best regards. Насколько я знаю, нации бывают только у людей. Обезьяны же различаются по видам. К какому из видов относятся турки я не знаю и судить не берусь. Пусть этой проблемой занимаются ветеринары... И поймите, наконец, я (мы, как вы выражаетесь) не обязан уважать кого-то, тем более если этот кто-то уважения не заслуживает. ............. Unfortunately, now Turks are in better condition than us in terms of economy and international reputation. Ну да! В самом деле? Чем же это они, эти башибузуки, заслужили такую репутацию? -- Тем, что еще совсем недавно отрубали головы курдским повстанцам и фотографировались на фоне отрезанных голов? А что касается их экономики, то скоро эта проблема будет решена -- американские конгрессмены все чаще ставят вопрос о сокращении многомиллиардных американских дотаций в турецкую экономику... Edited December 16, 2003 by Соломон Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sergo Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 (edited) But before that let's remember that we were privileged ethnicity in Ottoman Turkey and we had relatively good life. Уважаемый, Объективный историк! Хотел написать свои соображения поэтому поводу на английском, но увы мой английский не так хорош. Не буду скрывать, я думаю, что Вы не армянин. Хотя могу и ошибаться. Теперь по существу. Вы пишите , что армяне были привилигированным народом в империи. Но ведь всем известно, что христианские народы (райа) были бесправны в Турции. К ним относились (греки, болгары, сербы, ассирийцы и армяне). Любой турок мог спокойно завладеть имуществом христианина и ему ничего бы не было. Л. Троцкий писал, что у турок виноватыми всегда оказываются армяне и по любому поводу устраивается резня армян. В этом ли заключалась их привилигированность? Я мог бы привести многочисленные свидетельства о положении армян и других народов в Османской империи, но к сожалению из-за нехватки времени не могу этого сделать. Тем более что в сети полно материалов на эту тему, и при желании Вы их можете отыскать сами. Edited December 16, 2003 by sergo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Turks are not able to have a country and moreover a national interests, all what they did during last century was only a results of Jewish interests in middle east. And up to now, Turkey is not able to represent interests of his own people of Turkey in negotiation with any other nations, moreover with armenians. So with whom are you, ObjectivHistoric, is going to negotiate? With a puppets? Ask mein editors - jews, they are near you in NY, and they will explain, what kind of plans they have for region called Turkey and do the turk-armenian relations are important for jews. I think it is not in interests of Israel to have not strong Christian Armenian and moreover strong Muslim Turkish country in neihborhood fo Israel. Want to know more look here where we had an guy from Turkey and tried to find a ways to come to some desision for turk-armenian relations http://forum.hayastan.com/index.php?showtopic=1436&hl=. Turks need first to understand who they are and what they are wanting, till that time it is only casting pearls before swine, when armenians tring to negotiate about politic in middle east region with Turks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I think it is not in interests of Israel to have not strong Christian Armenian and moreover strong Muslim Turkish country in neihborhood fo Israel. Don't forget my friend that Israel needs water and gess what, they recently has signed a treaty for import of water from Turkey. So they desperately need to be close with Turks. Another thing, Turkey is the only muslim country in the region wtih a secular and democratic regime. And may be the only muslim country that has good relations with Israel, too. Having a strong Christian country in the Middle East really doesn't have to do anything with jews. Moreover, some of jews doesn't really like Armenians especially because they were taught that Anatolian Armenians killed some of them during these tough times around 1915. So we don't have anything to rely on jews. But may be russians ca help us! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Теперь по существу. Вы пишите , что армяне были привилигированным народом в империи. Но ведь всем известно, что христианские народы (райа) были бесправны в Турции. К ним относились (греки, болгары, сербы, ассирийцы и армяне). Любой турок мог спокойно завладеть имуществом христианина и ему ничего бы не было. Л. Троцкий писал, что у турок виноватыми всегда оказываются армяне и по любому поводу устраивается резня армян. В этом ли заключалась их привилигированность? Come on guys! Armenians were smart people even under Ottoman rule they were very succesful!!! Look at this list: FAMOUS ARMENIANS OF THE OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT *Agop Gircikyan - Counsellor of the first Turkish Ambassador, Resid Pasha. *Krikor Agaton- Chairman of the Ottoman Post and Telegram Office (1848-50). *Sahak Abro- General secretary of the Ministry of International Affairs (1850-). *Sebuh Laz- Secretary in the Turkish Embassy in Paris (1863). *Krikor Odyan- Principle of the International courts. *Serkis Effendi- First Secretary of Ministry of International Affairs (1870-1871) *Ovakim K. Reisyan- Judge *Artin Dadyan Paa- Counsellor in Ministry of foreign Affairs (1880) *Diran Aleksan Bey- Ottoman Ambassador for Belgium (1862) *Yetvart Zohrab Effendi- Ottoman Ambassador for London (1838-1839) *Hirant Duz Bey- Ottoman Ambassador for Italy (1900-1907) *Hovsep Misakyan Effendi- Ottoman Ambassador for La Haye (1900-1907) *Sarkis Balyan- Turkish Consulate for Italy (1900) *Azaryan Manuk-Counsellor of Ministry of Foreign Affairs *Kapriyel Noradunkyan-Minister of Foreign Affairs (1912) *Agop Kazazyan Pasha- Minister of Finance *Mikael Portukal Pasha- Counsellor of the Ministry of Finance (1886) *Sakiz Ohannes Pasha- General Secretary of Ministry of Foreign Affairs (1871), Minister of Finance (1897) *Garabet Artin Davut Pasha- Ottoman Ambassador for Vienna (1856-1857), Governor of Lebanon (1861), Minister of Internal Affairs (1868) *Krikor Sinopyan- Minister of Internal Affairs *Krikor Agaton- Chairman of PTT (1864) *Jorj Serpos Effendi- General Secretary of Turkish Communication (1868) *Osgan Mardikyan-Minister of Communication (1913) *Tomas Terziyan, Nisan Gugasyan, Tavit Circiyan- Professors of Political Science. *Krikor Zohrab, Bedros Hallaciyan- Istanbul deputies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xes Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I would kindly ask you both to drop this topic as no one here is interested to read your second-rated accounts on armenian-turkish and armenian-jewish relations. You both as I understand are able to speak your thoughts in russian and maybe armenian. All these topics are covered in various postings on this site, so please direct yourselfs to them and discuss them there. Objective Historian, admit the fact of your pathetic usage of english and then switch to your native, whatever that is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mirzoyan Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Турки недостойны даже усилий необходимых для нажатия на клавиши клавиатуры, чтобы обсуждать их всерьёз. Соломон прав, это не люди а презренные тараканы, пресмыкающиеся ObjectiveHistorian who are you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voter Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Don't forget my friend that Israel needs water ....... And US need Oil, for that they start to negotiate with Iraq long time even supporting him in war agains Iran, but finally it became clear, that it is more cheap to violate than to negotiate . Another thing, Turkey is the only muslim country in the region wtih a secular and democratic regime...... Bulshit, it is a country under somebodies control, before was England, then US, now they want to be under EU, but guess why EU don't want Turkey??? ...... So we don't have anything to rely on jews. But may be russia could help us! I didn't claim, that jews need to be the key nation in middle east and everybody else must rely on them. But point out the fact of strong jewsish influence on everything at middle east and especially in Turkey during last century starting Ataturk till latest prime ministr Ejevet, who was only a 3rd generation of same party of Ataturk with old "secular" politic under which more than 30% of population of Turkey emmigrated... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOB Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) Obviously this topic is nothing but provocation, nevertheless here is my answer for you mister Historian. After Turkey officially recognizes the fact of Armenian genocide like Switzerland did couple of days ago, we’ll continue this discussion. Edited December 17, 2003 by HOB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mirzoyan Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 After Turkey officially recognizes the fact of Armenian genocide like Switzerland did couple of days ago, we’ll continue this discussion. Exactly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 But point out the fact of strong jewsish influence on everything at middle east and especially in Turkey during last century starting Ataturk till latest prime ministr Ejevet, who was only a 3rd generation of same party of Ataturk with old "secular" politic under which more than 30% of population of Turkey emmigrated... Well, I agree that Jews have stong influence on Turkey's politics. But that is in Turkey's interests, too. Especially in a region like middle east you need at least one country to rely on in case of conflict with Arabs. And Turkey as a "secular" country in the region is in the interest of Armenia, too. Just think about it, if there was not Ataturk now Armenia would be a neighbor of a country like Iran or Iraq, and they wouldn't give a shit about what Europeans or Armenians think about them. I think in this conditions having a "secular" and Western oriented Turkey makes Armenia safer. And if Turkey is accepted to EU, that I doubt, that would be even better for us. Then we will deal with EU itself and that is easier. And in case it happens what I am afraid is many of our patriots would even refuge to this country as a port to EU. Just a correction, current Prime Minister is Tayyip Erdogan, a guy that we should be concerned about. A proislamist and a threat to the secular regime. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Соломон Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Берегитесь лжепророков, которые приходят к вам в овечьей одежде, а внутри суть волки хищные (Матф,7,15) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziyadli Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Турки недостойны даже усилий необходимых для нажатия на клавиши клавиатуры, чтобы обсуждать их всерьёз. Соломон прав, это не люди а презренные тараканы, пресмыкающиеся ObjectiveHistorian who are you? Wow....That is, actually, not kind from you, dear Mirzoyan. I think if you will agree to open your eyes you will discover the world around you, which is great. And the all the nations of this world are a part of this great world. Believe me... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shrek Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) Wow....That is, actually, not kind from you, dear Mirzoyan. I think if you will agree to open your eyes you will discover the world around you, which is great. And the all the nations of this world are a part of this great world. Believe me... Your English, as well as the English of so-called Objective Historian, is incredible. BTW, you both have a common style of writing. Edited December 17, 2003 by shrek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziyadli Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Your English, as well as the English of so-called Objective Historian, is incredible. BTW, you both have a common style of writing. Ohhhhhh...my gosh..what do now? They know that ObjectiveHistorian and me, we are the same person....oh gosh... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unregistered - V Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) Ziyadli, no reconciliation with you. Until and unless you learn how to do a proper :censored: by voter. And - only upon my personal testing of your newly acquired skills. After that, - anything is possible, but not just now. Tell me what you think. . Неприличными словами неругаться voter Edited December 18, 2003 by voter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObjectiveHistorian Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Another reason for the impossibility to convince the world regarding the genocide is the Jewish opposition against that. And as everybody knows nowdays Jews rule the world, starting from USA. And here is why they oppose us: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Armenian-Nazi Collaboration in WW II ============================== To validate a spurious genocide allegations, the Armenians curry favor with the Jewish people, and manipulate the Holocaust tragedy to gain some undeserved recognition from this uniquely Jewish experience. Historical evidences point to a devious Armenian collusion with Hitler to exterminate the Jews during WW II. Today, no matter how much the Armenians try to conceal this heinous episode from the public knowledge the Armenian conspiracy with Hitler is in the history books-- indelibly. Soon it will be in the public conscience too. In early 1930s, when Hitler ascended to power, he began cultivating the Armenians to use their long-standing and strong anti-semitic feelings in his plans and policy. The Armenians, through their publications, radio broadcasts and meetings supported and cheered the Nazis on their attacks on Jews. Alfred Rosenberg, who was to become later Hitler's Minister of the Occupied Territories, declared that the Armenians were Indo-European, or Aryans, which honored them and put them in the same league with the Nazis. In Hitler's foreign policy the Armenians fitted very nicely too. Hitler's future invasion plans of Russia provided a golden opportunity for the Armenians to liberate what they considered to be "Historic Armenia" from the Soviet as well as the Turkish rule. The short-lived Armenian Republic established in 1918 in the southern Caucasus by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (TheDashnaks) was conquered by the Russian Bolsheviks in 1920, and ceased to exist. This time, the Dashnaks saw a good opportunity in the collaboration with the Nazis to regain those territories. To that end, on December 30, 1941 they formed a battalion of 8,000-strong known as the "812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht" under the command of Dro (Drastamat Kanayan), a seasoned guerilla leader who had fought against the Turks in the Eastern Turkey before and during the Turkish War of Independence following World War I. Later, he became the supreme commandant of the Armenian army in the short lived Armenian Republic, and in 1920-1921 he organized a wide-spread genocide against the Azeri and the Turkish populations in the region. This is documented in the book World Alive by the U.S. Naval officier Robert Steed Dunn who was an eye-witness to those Armenian atrocities. Lieutenant Dunn was the Intelligence officier of Rear Admiral Mark L. Bristol, the American High-Commissioner in the region and also a de facto American Ambassador in Turkey. Between 1919-1921 lieutenant Dunn travelled extensively with Dro and his army in the region, and both made several contacts with the Russian Bolsheviks, the Turkish and the Armenian National forces. With this historical perspective, this new task assigned to Dro by the Nazi leadership after a quarter of century later seemed to be a break to fulfill his dream of conquest. This alliance alarmed Turkey and the Turkish Jews. The British Ambassador in Ankara reported to London that "The Armenians [in Turkey] are extremely fruitful ground for German activities, and these non-Muslim elements with their pre-Kemalist [i.e. Ottoman period] mentality are always viewed with mistrust by the Turkish authorities." (Public Record Office, Foreign Office document: F.O 371/ 30031/ R5337) This infamous 812th Battalion later developed into a so-called "Armenian Legion" of 20,000-strong with the efforts of Alfred Muradian, a German-Armenian, and by Armik Jamalian, the son of the Arshak Jamalian, the Foreign Minister of the short-lived Armenian Republic. The troops of this Legion were trained and led by the SS and its Security Division S.D., and they joined the Nazi Einsatz Gruppen in the invasion of the Crimea and the North Caucasus. These Armenian Battalions rendered valuable services to the Nazis as police units for internal security duties in the occupied territories. It was their duties to round up the Jews and the other "undesirable" elements, and organize the death marches to the concentration camps. Pursuing those familiar utopic dreams, and shrewdly manipulated by the Nazis, the Armenians foolishly tied their lot to Hitler, and praised him lavishly in the Armenian-language daily Hairenik on September 17, 1936: "... and came [to power] Adolph Hitler after herculean struggles. He spoke to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the fountain of his national genius..." Then, in August 19, 1936 the same daily Hairenik published the following: "Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews) when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During a surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing. Under such conditions dictatorship seems to have the role of a savior." The daily Hairenik dated August 20 exposed the following bigotry: "Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers, are compelled to create an atmosphere of internationalism and world-citizenship in order to preserve their race. As the British use battleships to occupy lands, the Jews use internationalism or communism as a weapon..." The September 25, 1936, Hairenik Weekly, an English language organ of the Armenians (edited in Boston) denounced Zionist aims, and adopted a strong anti-Jewish and pro-Arab view, and printed the following: ".. the type of Jews who are imported to Palestine is not anything to be proud about. Their loose morals, and their vices... and on top of all, their communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab criticism." The August 9, 1935 issue of the Hairenik Weekly published a vitriol about "the Jewish controlled film industry", then ascribed the massacres of the Jews by the Greeks and Armenians in Salonica to the Jewish love of gain. The May 10, 1935 issue of the Hairenik Weekly quoted the vice-Mayor of Bucharest, Romania as saying: "The Armenians have helped us Romanians not to become slaves of the Jewish elements." Romania was one of the foremost anti-Semitic country where the hatred for the Jews reached hyperbolic dimensions. Starting in the summer of 1942, a twenty-five years old Armenian by the name Suren Begzadian Paikhar organized and led the Armenian National Socialist (Nazi) movement called Hossank (Lightening), which gained a considerable following among Armenian youth in German-occupied Europe and to some degree in Turkey too. On December 15, 1942, these Armenian-Nazis and their supporters in Germany coalesced into the Armenian National Council under the direction of professor Ardeshir Abegian, and the vice-president Abraham Chulkandanian, and several old Dashnak guerillas, like Vahan Papazian and Karakin Nezhdeh, who were the veterans of the Turkish wars in the Eastern Anatolia after the World War I. Blessed by Alfred Rosenberg, this organization spew forth anti-Semitic and racist vituperations through the broadcasts of the Radio Berlin, and their weekly journal Armenian, published until the end of 1944, and edited by Viken Shant, son of the another well-known Dashnak leader Levon Shant. Suren Begzadian Paikhar and some Hossank followers worked as commentators/ announcers in the French and Armenian radio services of the Nazi Ministry of Propaganda under Goebbels. In those programs Paikhar was usually introduced as the Fuhrer of the Armenian people. (Patrik von zur Muhlen, Zwischen Hakenkreuz und Sowjetstern - Dusseldorf, Droste, 1971, pp. 105-106) The Armenian general Karekin Nezhdeh also founded the racist Armenian Tseghagron movement, through which the Armenian youths flocked to the SS and the other elite Nazi military forces. (Karekin Nazhdeh by James Mandalian - The Armenian Review I, 1958) Other Armenians living in France and Germany joined the 58th Panzer Corps, and the Ostlegion of the Wehrmacht's 19th Army, based in Lyon, France. The Dashnaks and the Hossank Armenian-Nazis worked closely with Admiral Canaris, who was the chief of the the German Military Intelligence (Abwehr), and his principal agent Hans Pickenbrock, the chief of the Branch No: 1, who was in charge of spying to obtain military information, as well as with Dr. Paul Leverkuhn, a key agent in Istanbul and the Director of the Istanbul Substation (KO-Nebenstelle) of the "War Organization Middle East" (Kriegsorganisation Naher Osten) from July 1941 until August 1944. This organization administered a major Nazi intelligence network, not only in Turkey but throughout the Middle East. The Armenian nationalists actively worked in those Nazi organizations to hunt down the Jews, and cooperated with Reichspropagandaleiter in spreading the Nazi propaganda in Turkey and in the Middle East. In these efforts they enlisted the support of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was a close ally of Hitler. During the early years of World War II, Germany was sweeping through the Western Europe, and all the prognosis for the outcome of the war were in favor of Germany. As the Armenian ethics always dictate fawning on the victor, they calculated -or, miscalculated- that it was about time to commit themselves entirely to Hitler's victory. They summarily formed a "provisional" Armenian government as a dress rehearsal for their soon-to-be-realized aspirations. However, in 1943 the fate of the war began shifting from Hitler to the Allies. The Armenians, the perennial political chameleons, summarily renounced their allegiance to Germany, and did an about-face, this time groveling before the Allies. " Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xes Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Ziyadli, no reconciliation with you. Until and unless you learn how to do a proper (:censored: by voter). And - only upon my personal testing of your newly acquired skills. After that, - anything is possible, but not just now. Tell me what you think. Viraboff, Don't you worry he (:censored: by voter) all the negros in Bronx. He knows his job, he has been practicing it for too long. ВВиду высокого уровня предупреждений на сей раз ограничусь устным предупреждением - voter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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