Thoughts of an anti-nationalist Turk

[Kars]

Между прочим, этот турок является членом какой-то «прогрессивной» ассоциации студентов Анкары, и спросил мое мнение: может ли он пригласить своих товарищей на этот форум и открыть отдельную тему о сближении армянской и турецкой молодежи. Я ему посоветовал пока-что воздержаться от этой идеи. Думаю, что их тут быстро заклюют.

Что скажете?

[Gnel]

Наоборот пообщаться неплохо, думаю обмен мнениями может пойти на пользу.

[Thug]

Карс, попробую пояснить свою позицию. Я против уступок с нашей стороны. Эти НПОшные программы имеют целью промыть нашим ребятам мозги, как уже сделали турецкая журналистка и алекпер алиев, потом появились всякие ваняны и погосяны, которые говорили о "мифе о геноциде".Карс, я против каких-либо уступок с нашей стороны, тем более односторонних. Пусть научат турок любить нас, пусть 99% турок любят нас, а потом уже можно с ними поговорить

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i went on a holiday for two days, i've just returned and i see the messages now, sorry for answering late. the first thing i should say is (in fact, i should repeat is) i am a turk, as i said before. but what i say is i cannot be a pure turk because we turks have been living together with the greek, the armenians, the persians, the kurds (and so on) for centuries. and since my hometown is highly populated with caucasus nations, i am a part of these nations, too. i am a little turk, a little armenian and a little laz. it's a cultural identity. and let's come to nationalism. i agree with you that a turkish nationalist is militarist and he wants to kill as many "enemies" as he can. but the point is that he never accepts that he wants war if you ask him about the reason of his bloodthirst, he will say "actually i am a peaceful man but you know armenians, arabs, jews and the greek want kill us all and i try to protect my country" do you really believe armenian nationalists don't kill anyone? maybe you're used to these arguments but i must repeat, ASALA killed innocent diplomats. i do know that an armenian genocide happened, but it doesn't mean that armed gnchak and dashnaktsutyun militants didn't kill innocent people during the first world war. But you say these were to defend the armenia, it sounds very familiar to me; like our nationalists say "the deportation was to defend our country from russians"look what system of a down say:revolution the only solution, the armed response of an entire nation (in their song "p.l.u.c.k.") I think like that, but if we are to kill someone for the "solution", these should be the guilty people, not the innocent ones.

[MiG-35]

i went on a holiday for two days, i've just returned and i see the messages now, sorry for answering late. the first thing i should say is (in fact, i should repeat is) i am a turk, as i said before. but what i say is i cannot be a pure turk because we turks have been living together with the greek, the armenians, the persians, the kurds (and so on) for centuries. and since my hometown is highly populated with caucasus nations, i am a part of these nations, too. i am a little turk, a little armenian and a little laz. it's a cultural identity. and let's come to nationalism. i agree with you that a turkish nationalist is militarist and he wants to kill as many "enemies" as he can. but the point is that he never accepts that he wants war if you ask him about the reason of his bloodthirst, he will say "actually i am a peaceful man but you know armenians, arabs, jews and the greek want kill us all and i try to protect my country" do you really believe armenian nationalists don't kill anyone? maybe you're used to these arguments but i must repeat, ASALA killed innocent diplomats. i do know that an armenian genocide happened, but it doesn't mean that armed gnchak and dashnaktsutyun militants didn't kill innocent people during the first world war. But you say these were to defend the armenia, it sounds very familiar to me; like our nationalists say "the deportation was to defend our country from russians"look what system of a down say:revolution the only solution, the armed response of an entire nation (in their song "p.l.u.c.k.") I think like that, but if we are to kill someone for the "solution", these should be the guilty people, not the innocent ones.

It is very good that you assert that: “i do know that an armenian genocide happened”! By the way, which is the situation now in Ankara, can the turkish students, while talking to each other, freely accept the fact of the Armenian Genocide? If yes, have you heared that from them frequently? Or they mostly say that “that was a sad deportation only”?***As to the second point about ASALA, etc… Yes, most of the killed turkish diplomats were innocent guys, but… don’t try to compare things that need not be compared. For example, when the Soviet army entered Germany, some soviet soldiers (and many Jews among them) were very brutal to the German. So, yes, Jews killed Germans at that time. But… But does this allow us to describe the events of 1934-45 as: “Yes, there was a Holocaust, but Jews have also killed Germans”?… You will agree that this would be a very unfair and strange description, changing the mening of the whole assertion.The same is in our situation. When the Russian army entered Van, Erzrum or Erzinjan, and when the ethnically Armenian soldiers in Russian army saw WHAT had happened there with the Armenians, they, yes, acted against the turks, and killed some of them. This is a historical fact that can be studied of course, but you need not compare that (or killings by ASALA) with a GENOCIDE, that is, with organized total killing of an ethical, social or religious group by the State, using the whole power of the State.

[the good]

merhaba arkadash. ur against nationalism and i respect that. everyone has his own views. but im afraid u have chosen the wrong forum to talk about it) every person here is nationalist and hates turks.hopefully there arent many hypocrits so that we all could agree on that))im azeri myself and this is what i think about nationalism. in the west(mainly europe) where everything is quiet and the last war was allmost a century ago, people dont accept nationalism.and try to reflect that to the rest of the world. although it is present even in europe. example: french and italian chauvinism. However, in my humble opinion, nationalism doestn necessarilly have to be smth negative. nationalist nations(such as turkey) have are nationalist for a reason. i dont think i will be discovering america again if i say that turkey has lots of enemies)) and when u have so many enemies u cant be weak. u must stay together and fight for what u believe. forget ideolistic considerations. the world we live in is not ideal. where i come from thats called maximalizm. a word that often goes hand in hand with the word "adolescent" infront. cuz its then when u start thinking about life and all the injustice and hostility in the world)).let me continue with an example. i am originally from baku. i dont know how much u heard of it but its the capital of my country. during soviet period known as a multicultural place where every minority, wether it was ethnical or religious, could live in prosperity. baku has raised more famous armenians than yerevan itself maybe)) people often underestimate this fact. why was that? why all people who ever lived in baku without having the possibility to go back....cant think about those times without having a big warm smile on their faces? its not the geographical position of this place that made it so multinational and later on a nostalgic place...IT WAS THE TOLERANCE OF THE MAJORITY. (nadeyus, chto xotyabi etogo ne budete otricat dorogie sosedi))))im not saying that tolerance is bad. im saying that tolerance in crazy proportions is bad)) we forgot who we were. we were blinded and didnt see the systematic plannings and pereperations of we all know who)))WE WERENT NATIONALIST BACK THEN. i think u know well what followed because of that blindness and lack of nationalism after the fall of the soviet union...that was a hard lesson for my nation. i dont think u want to make the same kardeshim)) but we fully compensated that lack of nationalism right now))u know when i was little i was a big fan of bruce lee)) i still am actually)) love that concept of a little chinese man making it in america during years of seperatism and stuff. just beautiful))anyway bruce had a major in philosophy and said some wise things which were unfortunetely underestimated. one of the things he said: u have 3 kinda people on earth. the first are the ones who know. learn from them! the second are the ones who dont know. teach them! and the third are sleeping. weak'm up!)) allow me to raise my hands and say HALLELUJAY right now and thank the armenians for weaking us up)) it was a loooong sleep but awakening after all that time feels great)) we're ready to rumble))in conclusion, dont try to struggle with nationalism, struggle the ones who caused it..)))that would be my humble advise if you can call it that way)) thank u for your attentionkendinizi bulmakda ugurlar diliyorum))to prevent provocation also in eng))): best of luck in your search for yourself

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i think you misunderstood me. i never aimed to compare the genocide with any other crimes. of course genocide is the most horrible crime against humanity. but in that sentences i tried to mention the militaristic essence of the nationalist ideology. "light" nationalism commits massacres, "hard" nationalism (racism, nazizm, fascism whatever you call) makes it genocide. and i'm not convinced that the murders can be tolerated just because of the genocide. fighting fire with fire is not a rational act, i think. in ankara, there is no specific situation different than the other cities. turkish education system is a real catastrophe. history books tell about how armenians betrayed their lovely country and so forth. so it is not very unexpected that most of the students think that the deportation (in fact, in turkey the word is not even deportation. they call it "change of location") was right. but for three/four years, we have been able to discuss that matters more clearly. especially university students started to understand the tragedies beneath. but whenever they see "mt. ararat belongs to armenia" etc. in some armenian protesters' placards, they make nationalist reactions because since sevres turkey has got a fear of division. (it has been a pathological sense since PKK started its actions) a "standard" turk thinks that all opposing folks such as armenians and kurds are puppets of imperialism but it is very easy to struggle against this thoughts by improving the communication of nations. our intellegentsia has been doing serius jobs about armenian question for several years. for example, orhan pamuk (who won a nobel prize this year) said "in anatolia 1.5 million armenians were killed". another famous author wrote a sensational book (bastard of istanbul). two of them were tried from our famous article 301 (murderer of hrant dink). and there was a strong, democratic reaction against these trials.so i want to say that beatiful things are going to happen in this case. turkish youth is getting closer to the reality. but you have serious tasks too. you shouldn't use western senates as mediators, when senates enforce turkey to accept that genocide had happened, turkish nationalism gets stronger. at the moment even the communist parties say that genocide is a lie. 'cause they relate those mediator actions with imperialism. if we and you set a good contact between our countries, improve the relations etc, it will be easier for turks to understand your sorrow.

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

thank you my yahshi qardash :)it is really a big surprise for me an azeri nationalist spoke so logical. you say turkey has enemies. you're right. in fact turkey cannot live without them but this is the state, regardless of its nation, who has enemies. i don't think that nations can be enemies to each other. and i don't care about my state. actually, ###### the state. i don't want any state on earth :)let me become more reasonable. you say nationalism is needed. i don't think so. you can love your country or your nation, it's OK. i am not a nationalist but i love my nation, as i love other nations. but nationalism is not loving your nation or country, it means hating other countries and nations. (you know the english philosophy: "england doesn't have friends, england has benefits") according to turkish national security policy, all the countries in the world are enemies. but i am prepared to destroy that policy, for sure about this site, i didn't know that "hayastan" means "armenia". but i want to talk to armenian nationalists already, not with internationalists. because i have to change nationalists' minds. it's difficult i know, but i trust myself

[Kars]

The good, muallim, before this topic got derailed, let me kindly remind you that there are numerous topics about Azeri-Armenian problems in this forum. If you have anything to say on this subject, you are welcome to visit there.

[the good]

sorry, but i dont agree with you. yes, ur right the actual definition of nationalism is quite negative. but thats in theory. in practise it allmost never goes that far. i mean ive lots of turkish friends and ive never seen them saying anything bad about a different nation. they just say they love turkey and ready to die protecting it and ready to hurt the enemies. i dont have to tell u how turks are i think) but ive never seen a turk disrespecting other nations neither verbal nor physically. and belive me i know a lot of turks) however, im sure that u understand that that changes when someone "throws a rock" in a turks garden..))and if u think u can change how people over here think about turks than my friend ur naive or dont know this people very well)) but i know them. and let me say this straight away. hopefully without hurting ur feelings..ur mission is impossible brother))doomed when not even started)) even tom cruise agrees))I would like to finish thi post with a quote from the Quran: "O Humankind! We have created you males and females, and have divided you into nations and tribes so that you may recognize each other. The best among you in the sight of God is the one most careful [of the truth] (49:13)" Careful we were but recognize we couldnt. Careful we remaind to recognize we learnt)))and i can assure you the recognition technigue mentioned above, has nothing to do with the woody allen quote about "some" people being smelly.....))))))))))))

[the good]

kars, thank u for ur precious advice axper but i am fully aware of that))dont know how well u read my post but i wasnt discussing the azeri-armenian conflict. there will be enough time to do that too) inshaAllah

[MiG-35]

merhaba arkadash. ur against nationalism and i respect that. everyone has his own views. but im afraid u have chosen the wrong forum to talk about it) every person here is nationalist and hates turks.hopefully there arent many hypocrits so that we all could agree on that))im azeri myself and this is what i think about nationalism. in the west(mainly europe) where everything is quiet and the last war was allmost a century ago, people dont accept nationalism.and try to reflect that to the rest of the world. although it is present even in europe. example: french and italian chauvinism. However, in my humble opinion, nationalism doestn necessarilly have to be smth negative. nationalist nations(such as turkey) have are nationalist for a reason. i dont think i will be discovering america again if i say that turkey has lots of enemies)) and when u have so many enemies u cant be weak. u must stay together and fight for what u believe. forget ideolistic considerations. the world we live in is not ideal. where i come from thats called maximalizm. a word that often goes hand in hand with the word "adolescent" infront. cuz its then when u start thinking about life and all the injustice and hostility in the world)).let me continue with an example. i am originally from baku. i dont know how much u heard of it but its the capital of my country. during soviet period known as a multicultural place where every minority, wether it was ethnical or religious, could live in prosperity. baku has raised more famous armenians than yerevan itself maybe)) people often underestimate this fact. why was that? why all people who ever lived in baku without having the possibility to go back....cant think about those times without having a big warm smile on their faces? its not the geographical position of this place that made it so multinational and later on a nostalgic place...IT WAS THE TOLERANCE OF THE MAJORITY. (nadeyus, chto xotyabi etogo ne budete otricat dorogie sosedi))))im not saying that tolerance is bad. im saying that tolerance in crazy proportions is bad)) we forgot who we were. we were blinded and didnt see the systematic plannings and pereperations of we all know who)))WE WERENT NATIONALIST BACK THEN. i think u know well what followed because of that blindness and lack of nationalism after the fall of the soviet union...that was a hard lesson for my nation. i dont think u want to make the same kardeshim)) but we fully compensated that lack of nationalism right now))u know when i was little i was a big fan of bruce lee)) i still am actually)) love that concept of a little chinese man making it in america during years of seperatism and stuff. just beautiful))anyway bruce had a major in philosophy and said some wise things which were unfortunetely underestimated. one of the things he said: u have 3 kinda people on earth. the first are the ones who know. learn from them! the second are the ones who dont know. teach them! and the third are sleeping. weak'm up!)) allow me to raise my hands and say HALLELUJAY right now and thank the armenians for weaking us up)) it was a loooong sleep but awakening after all that time feels great)) we're ready to rumble))in conclusion, dont try to struggle with nationalism, struggle the ones who caused it..)))that would be my humble advise if you can call it that way)) thank u for your attentionkendinizi bulmakda ugurlar diliyorum))to prevent provocation also in eng))): best of luck in your search for yourself

the good muallim, your text above looks like a publication in Zerkalo.az by a Akif Nagi efendi…You are not right: THAT Baku was NOT the result of tolerance of azeris. THAT Baku was the result to the Russian presence in Caucasus. THAT multi-cultural, friendly Baku appeared on the Earth when the Russians came to Caucasus, and disappeared when the Russians went away. If your “tolerance” means something, try to apply it, say, to Talish and Lezgin people, who are asking you for national textbooks and national schools for years without any success… If you are so tolerant, why don't you give some rights to Talishs or Lezgins?And lastly…

… when i was little i was a big fan of bruce lee)) i still am actually)) love that concept of a little chinese man

Wow, pretty refreshing…

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

by the way, i forgot the ask an important question. thug says "you are trying to deceive us as if turks want peace". why would i do that really? does he have valid grounds to claim that i'm a liar? and thug, months ago when you were talking with Bora (armenia turkey peace), you got reasonable and made attempts for a good dialogue in your final posts. but now you don't even talk to me. we're communicating by the help of Kars why?

[Thug]

...

[SamvelT]

Между прочим, этот турок является членом какой-то «прогрессивной» ассоциации студентов Анкары, и спросил мое мнение: может ли он пригласить своих товарищей на этот форум и открыть отдельную тему о сближении армянской и турецкой молодежи. Я ему посоветовал пока-что воздержаться от этой идеи. Думаю, что их тут быстро заклюют.

Что скажете?

Kars jan ! Неплохая идея кстати ... Сам прецедент стоит многого . Группа товарищей хотят пообщаться на форуме с нами , нужно только регламентировать беседу , чтобы не получился разнобой с вопросами и ответами ... Это моё мнение , а в общем неплохая идея ... Не надо бояться грубых ответов , тем более беседа будет вестись по-английски всё равно . Решайте ребята , я - за ...

[SamvelT]

The same is in our situation. When the Russian army entered Van, Erzrum or Erzinjan, and when the ethnically Armenian soldiers in Russian army saw WHAT had happened there with the Armenians, they, yes, acted against the turks, and killed some of them. This is a historical fact that can be studied of course, but you need not compare that (or killings by ASALA) with a GENOCIDE, that is, with organized total killing of an ethical, social or religious group by the State, using the whole power of the State.

[Kars]

Kars jan ! Неплохая идея кстати ... Сам прецедент стоит многого . Группа товарищей хотят пообщаться на форуме с нами , нужно только регламентировать беседу , чтобы не получился разнобой с вопросами и ответами ... Это моё мнение , а в общем неплохая идея ... Не надо бояться грубых ответов , тем более беседа будет вестись по-английски всё равно . Решайте ребята , я - за ...

Я тоже, впрочем, «за».

Но надо прослушать еще несколько мнений.

[Thug]

Когда армяне заходят в турецкие форумы, там начинается мат-перемат. Зачем сближение должно начинаться за наш счет?

[Yerevanci]

Thug

Иисус учил не "переставать любить своих врагов". Ты любишь наших врагов? Или хотя бы проявляешь к ним уважение?(хотя бы к тем кто настроен на хороший лад)?

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

i hope someone will translate me what's going on and the topic is changing to "thoughts of a nationalist armenian" step by step, i think

[Nairi]

fraternity for eternity, Don't worry, thay don't speak about you and nobody says anything bad about you.

They speak about the opportunity of creation a special section where turkish people like you could discuss the problems of relation between Armenians and Turks. Some are for it, but some are against saying that it's a bit prematture and are afraid that the discussions in this section can lead only to insultings to both sides.

[Thug]

Привет, Ереванци, политика - это одно, а личный уровень - другое. Но признаюсь, нервишки шалят у меня от них Могу быть неконструктивен

У меня есть предложение. А что если нам пойти на турецкий форум? Я попрошу у них приглашения.

Hi turkish members of our forum

I would like to talk with your group on Turkish forum.

I hope it wouldn't be a problem

[Guest fraternity for eternity]

this is a good idea. (in fact in turkey we're trying to do something similar nowadays) some of my friends are likely to join the forum if a spesific topic is started about the relation between us.

[Yerevanci]

Привет, Ереванци, политика - это одно, а личный уровень - другое. Но признаюсь, нервишки шалят у меня от них Могу быть неконструктивен

Привет Thug джан. Вот ты говоришь что политика это одно, а личное -- это другое. Я с тобой согласен. Но скажи лично ты на личном уровне как к простым туркам относишься?(их государство в расчет не берем)

[Windowsvista]

the good muallim, your text above looks like a publication in Zerkalo.az by a Akif Nagi efendi…

You are not right: THAT Baku was NOT the result of tolerance of azeris. THAT Baku was the result to the Russian presence in Caucasus. THAT multi-cultural, friendly Baku appeared on the Earth when the Russians came to Caucasus, and disappeared when the Russians went away. If your "tolerance" means something, try to apply it, say, to Talish and Lezgin people, who are asking you for national textbooks and national schools for years without any success… If you are so tolerant, why don't you give some rights to Talishs or Lezgins?

And lastly…

Wow, pretty refreshing…

Just would like to expand on this remark. As a Talysh from my dad side (all I have to do is present my last name, and without any doubt that shall satisfy any curious minds) I would like to assure that I have never heard my dad, or any of our relatives even ONCE complain about our rights being disturbed or discriminated on that basis. Not even once. This includes Soviet and post-Soviet period ( ok, may be jokes about 12 AM, but lets get real, I laugh and tell them myself). This includes every single member of our quite extended family in Lenkoran, Astara , Massaly ( seems like most of the people here are pretty familiar with the geography of Azerbaijan, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem, but if I am mistaken then generally these are the areas with Talysh population).

I am not going to touch the Lezgin issue, because I would choose to leave that to appropriate people. I am fully aware that on this forum there is one user who proclaims that he is talysh and the rights of his people are next to the dirt on sidewalk. I am not looking to start a great argument here, like wow wow, you say this, he says that, but I really don't have wax in my ears (I clean them pretty well actually on daily basis, but I will touch on this topic sometime later))) ), so I am trying to find this absolutely incredible that I have not heard of this problem. Absolutely incredible. Thank you for your time. Sorry about going away from original topic, but you have to agree that when people speak on your behalf like that and your problems which you didnt even know existed .... jsut draws attention.

PS: about that so called Talysh Mugam Respublikasi. As one of my professors says, just like Holy Roman Empire ( there was nothing holy about it, it wasn't Roman, and it wasn't an empire)……

PPS: No, I don't speak talysh, so lets not check my language capabilities. Please. Pretty please

Edited January 31, 2007 by Windowsvista