SamvelT

To ozzyoi : Well , You see the issue from turkish point of view . I'm not asking to see it from armenian side , but let's say ... universal . I agree about a dialogue and sport events , maybe arts and theatre would be a good idea too . How about open disscussion on TV , something like tele - bridge between students of the high schools , for the beginning (like one between US and Soviet Union in 1980-s) . Not sensored , not audited by anybody , and televised all over the both countries . Good idea isn't it . But I think turkish side is just not ready . Too complicated constitution . My personal opinion is that turks are ready for dialogue morally , but not physicaly . On the other side armenians more ready physicaly , but morally we are hurt by anything less than whole Truth . Yes we are on the edge or in the corner or alone , and we are not see happiness as a nation from somebody's view point . Our happines is in filling ourselves right ( victims ) , but not wrong (predators) . This is the highest standart for us . You see , I'm trying to make You understand (and I think You do ) , that it's not that both of our sides do not want to talk , but to talk what about . I kind of think , that we (armenians, or maybe just me - armenian ) do not follow in how many dimensions turks are talking , i.e. they start from sircumstances or politics around the issue of Genocide ( one dimension) , then jump (not smoothly ) to more material world (second dimension ) , then try to accuse the other side (third dimension) and go there and back , whenever they feel that they actualy loosing in either of those dimensions . That's why I think it's nessesary for the beginning to standartise the topics of discussion and scedule of it . That's what I call universal view of the Issue , regardless of national mentalitet . I bet both sides will discover something new for temselves . Yes at the end I should admit , a dialogue is important , is nessesary and armenians will benefit from it more than turks , but benefit is not a Victory ( for intelligent opponents of course ) . And turks will benefit from dialogue not much less ,than armenians if they will try to find what kind of benefit they want for themselves (in other words : what is more important for them ) . Thank's again for your reply . Happy New Year .

Sprich ( shpric ) , trelebus (troleybus) , verh-vniz varyonken ( rech' shla ob odezhde , kostume dzhinsovom) .

Ko nechno , esli thakhoi "obwepiriznannnyj " znatok , khakh Bahtiyar - myuyallim vmeshaessa , to tochno ustanovyat . Rukopisi i prochaya erunda takim kadram i v pomine ne nuzhna . Tol'ko kem priznanny ? Chto vy sami sebya obmanyvaete , kakoj Sary Gyalin (nevesta v zheltom ) - dva krasnyh yabloka i svechka , odna , piti odna tarelka na 10 chelovek i kassir na vhode na svad'bu . Samyj krutoj moment kstati nastupaet posle obkurki pod mejhanu ( rech' o svad'be ... konechno) , a nevestu v zheltom Sayat Nova vam propisal , ili zabyli eto imya ... kul'turovedy (nizamivedy) ? Stol'ko naglosti i ni gramma styda dlya hot' kakogo - to balansa .

Nayaz , inch es spasum ...

Prekrasnye , ochen' zhizneradostnye lyudi i daj Bog vsem nam optimizma gruzinskih armyan , kak vprochem i suhumskih . Kogda ya byl v armii (85-87 g.g.) , u menya ostalis' o nih samye teplie vospominaniya .

Slyshal hohmu nedavno pro russkih turistov :muzh zhene govorit -"Irka , ya tut takoi supchik nashel , skol'ko ne p'esh' ne p'yaneesh' "

Vsya tragediya v tom dlya bakinzev i zaklyuchaetsya , chto vot eto samoe bydlo o kotorom pishet zarbazan , vzyalo verh . Ya tozhe bakinez , prichem do mozga kostej . I menya provozhal drug do tetinogo doma na 28-go Aprelya (Telefonnaya) , esli pomnite dom 23-ej shkoly. i uezzhal ya v to zhe vremya , chto i Shenyatsi , dvumya dnyami ran'she 26-go Noyabrya 88-go goda poezdom v Ordzhonikidze . I videl tolpy lyudej s plakatami i haos po vsemu gorodu , polnoe bezvlastie ili skoree prednamerennoe bezvlastie , kuchu yaschikov goryschih pryamo na uglu pered gostinizej "Baku" . Shli my kstati peshkom do vokzala cherez ves' etot bardak . Ya dumaayu spustya stol'ko let chto vernis' eti dni obratno , to mnogie postupili by inache - ya imeyu vvidu azerbaidzhancev . Pomnite tu hohmu "menyaem odnogo armyanina na desyat' erazov" , govoryat chto chut' ne na stenah pisali . A bakinskie armyane ponyali , mnogie ran'she , mnogie pozzhe , chto lovit' tam nechego. Na bytovom urovne byli lyudi , a v masse nado bylo byt' protiv nas . To est' na zhargone vyrazhayas' skurvilis' mnogie sosedi , znakomye ....... dazhe druz'ya . Vot eto samoe uzhasnoe . I ne tol'ko rech' idet ob azerbaidzhancah , no i mnogie drugie tozhe . A v takie tyazhelie dni vidish' vse v seryh tonah . A naschet lyubvi k bezhenzam s obeih storon , ne byvaet ee . Hotya by potomu chto takaya massa lyudej net-net da i isportit ustoyavshijsya uklad zhizni , mirovozzreniya i t.d i t.p. Da i bezhanzi ne ochen' dovol'ny byt' razmennoj monetoi . A voobsche ya vstrechal yerevanskih az-zev v Baku , iz samogo Yerevana . Ochen' dazhe priyatnye , intelligentnye lyudi . Da i na vopros o tom kak uehali , oni otvetili s dostoinstvom , bez isteriki , chto uehali vsvyazi s sobytiyami (iyun' - iyul' 88-go ) , no ih nikto ne vygonyal . A Yerevan kstati ne takoi kak Baku vo vseh aspektah . mozhet ne takoj bol'shoj i shirokij , no namnogo chische i demokratichnej . Ne v obidu ni komu kto ewe v Baku , no po urovnyu "shablonov" i meschanstva Baku na pervom meste so vsemi vytekayuwimi etalonami tipichno sovetskogo goroda . Da i teryaet on svoe lizo (Baku) bystree . Ya nadeyus' , chto menya ponyali pravil'no - eto ne kritikanstvo , a skoree moi analiz spustya 18 let i 3 strany prozhivaniya . Konechno govorya tak , ya vse zhe bakinez im i ostanus' navsegda , i lyubogo cheloveka nazyvayuwego sebya bakincem , budu ozenivat' cherez svoyu prizmu mirovospriyatiya , v kotorom neposlednyuyu rol' igraet , kak etot preslovutyj bakinec smotrit na bakinskih armyan , chto on o nas znaet , a po otvetu soglasites' , znaesh' s kem imeesh' delo . Obidy ne derzhu , Druz'ya ostayutsya Druz'ami , no izvinite ne lyublyu nedogovarivat' .

Net , Christmas i Novyj God spravlyayut , i nachali ran'she vseh ...

Ne nervnichaite rebyata . Eti popki-popugai tol'ko cherez 90 let ponyali , chto daby skryt' svoi prestupleniya , nado pod zhertvu kosit' . No pozdno , kak govoritsya "poezd ushel" ... Poddelka nikogda i nigde ne kotiruetsya .

Vrut podonki . Moi ded s Russkoi armiei (armyanskaya druzhina ) doshel do Erzuruma . Vgorode pokinutom vsemi ne bylo ni odnogo inzidenta . Ded kogda byl zhiv rasskazyval , chto tol'ko odna devochka turchanka byla let 14-ti , kto-to hotel chto-to plohoe sdelat' iz soldat , posle vsego uvidennogo ranee , no ded s drugom svoim ostanovili eto delo , ne tronul nikto rebenka . A pozhe eta zhe devochka prinesla im svezhevypechennyj hleb . Ded mnogo nam s bratom rasskazyval i mnogoe ya pomnyu . On byl ranen 7 paz , gordilsya chto ni razu v spinu . A my s bratom v eti rany karandashi vstavlyali ( rany byli glubokie ) ... A v fotografiyah bojzov oborony ne vizhu nikakogo kriminala . Pust' pechatayut , ya ih kstati otpechatayu . Neplohaya informacia .

Samvel . Prisoedinyayus' . Kstati to zhe samoe delaetsya obychno cherez ANCA ili AAA (Action Alert), posylayut e-mail i my posylaem pis'mo ili email svoim senatoram i kongressmenam . Koroche ya s vami druz'ya .

To ozzyoi : I'm sorry for late reply . First of all : You are not a "joker" . I wanted to clarify that before furter discussion . And I hope there is people in Turkey , would at least for 1% , think like You do . I have do one point . In your posts , you state about realities in Turkey . well believe it or not , as armenian , I know those realities even without visiting Turkey. You write , that something should be changed in approach of the issue of Genocide ( and there is a trick ) - from BOTH SIDES . What would You suggest armenians to change . How they (or we) can approach or view or feel about Genocide , if for 90 years we actually knew about it ... You see , it's like somebody just slept for 90 years and then woke up one morning without any memories of unpaid bills , and he wants the other side to come closer to his position ... Does it make any sence to You ? Not to me for sure ... I agree on a point , that we have to start at least serious talks , but only serious not propaganda type with TV cameras etc. Then You wrote about a citizenship (turkish) for armenians . How about armenian sitizenship for turks ? Well , You see at the time , when Ottoman empire was breaking apart ( I mean Albania , Romania , Serbia etc. etc. ) , it was OK kind of for them to get away , but NOT OK for Armenia ... And I guess You know why : not to be cutted of from other turkic speaking states oreven not states THEN , but etnicities . And I also think , not for a cultural expansion , but more for a physical one... even agriement of Kars between Turkey and Soviet Russia points on that in the issue of Karabagh and Nachichevan ... I do not think armenians then and now have any other choice to SURVIVE as a nation , without beeing protected by someone from outside . Armenia should have securities that will constitute their excistance for many years (read centuries) to come from their opponents in order to change their (and my also) point of view of the situation . Plus independent access to sea (any) . Those are not just details but , kind of introduction to MY side of realities . At the end , I hope , I was not boaring nor offensive , and would like to wish You and your family all the best in this Holiday season . I hope we will continue our dialogue and somebody from "rullers" of the World will read it and say or write "I think it is possible , they can do it " ( in reference to the post prior to mine ) . Best regards .

to ozzyoi : the problem I see in your responce is , when You say , that Genocide was organized by corrupt goverment and military ... Maybe so , but was carried by ordinary people (soldiers are ordinary people too , they were comming back to their families and so on...) . To me it means that an argument , that people in Turkey does not know about the Genocide is not usable nor solid . So as of today to prepare ( pay attention - not educate , but prepare ) public opinion in Turkey, should not take long . I can tell You how I feel when I hear that we should understand somebody's position or that people on the other side of argument does not know ( uneducated... kind of ) . I will be open for conversation to anybody who is truthfull to himself (that means intelligent and truthfull to me too) , I feel it , so no joker's are aloud . Otherwise look what all of us have . And finally about US , EU etc. Genocide was preplanned by them as a part (or the first signs) of Globalization . It went wrong direction 90 years ago , it goes wrong way now too . They (EU, US, Russia) were and are wrong also . That's why they should be allways be included in dialogue . Not to monitor but to participate in the solution . Not to take protectorate over either side but to guarantee and support peaceful coexistance of our nations . I've got some other route to our conversation , but next time ... and thank's for your reply .

To ozzyoi . Welcome back ! Yes unfortunately You are right and about evolution process for turks and EU - s pressureon Turkey . My personal opinion is that turks as a nation don't have good enough strategy to get out of the "mess" , that was created . And they are surrounded by all those circumstances of the Past and Present . But not only turks ... Also europeans and also armenians . The only difference is , that europeans can raise the issue of Genocide every time , when it's handy for them to do so (it's all about money , for them anyway , isn't it ?) . For armenians it's more about not to be a scapegoats for all World ( i.e. somebody wants to make money while we are being disposed ) . For Turkey do is a little bit different story : not to be blamed for their wish to make money while not letting somebody else to make money , while willing to make money with the ones who will not let us (and will blame us allways when handy) to make money . So Turkey becomes corrupt just because of one and only one issue . Otherwise there is no reason of any discussion of that kind . Nobody yet could escape from own shadow . It is not physical paine , but moral , that gives so much uncomfortability to turks . And the best they can do under circumstances is to try to forget all ( sometimes even offending , by using so "cheap labor " , like azeri's help ) , or to show up something "cheap" , like newly opened "Armenian Museum" in Istambul . The problem is that nobody except azeris is "bying" it . And turks realize that . I hope , I did not offend nobody personaly , but just tried to analize , why we are having discussion (only one of many sides of it ) . Best regards to You .

Pochemu zhe , est' armyanskaya familiya Agaronyan , Aharonyan ili Agaronov ochen' dazhe ne redkaya. Vse zavisit ot perevoda na drugie yazyki .

Delo ne v tom , chto on skazal . Ved' eto tol'ko slova... , ili politika , kak ya ranee vyrazilsya . Da i ne pristaval ya ni k komu , a prosto do obschego svedeniya dovozhu , to chto znayu sam . Nazional'nost' ved' ne nam prisuzhdat' Karmir dorogoj . I potom ya chisto po chelovecheski ne veryu , i nikogda ne poveryu , chto izza kakih-to interesov (korystnyh) on otkazyvalsya ot svoej rodni (mamy, babushki, teti i t.d.) . Ved' ne vse zhe vyskazivaniya nashih politikov , sportsmenov , artistov i t.d. nam nravyatsya . Koroche rebyata ne budu prodolzhat' , kazhdyj reshaet dlya sebya . Rad ya lichno kazhdomu armyanskomu imeni vo vseh sferah zhizni , a v sporte osobenno . I v zaklyuchenii , esli pomnite tot zhe 89-ij god : interv'yu Arkadiya Andreasyana v "Armyanskom Fizkul'turnike" , posle chego on byl uvolen s posta starshego trenera ... Nu da ladno eta tema uzhe bol'she podhodit k futbolu chem k shahmatam .

Kstati , a Vladimir Akopyan igral na etom turnire ? Ya chto-to pro nego ne slyshal v poslednee vremya .

Znaesh' , godu etak v 89-om v "Sovetskom Sporte" byla stat'ya o nem . Tak vot v etoj samoj stat'e on podcherknul , chto schitaet sebya Armyaninom , t.k. iz Baku on "uezzhal" kak Armyanin so vsemi svoimi rodstvennikami - armyanami . Da potom kakoe eto imeet znachenie , my v Baku ego schitali Armyaninom vsegda ,a vse ostal'noe politika ...

Kak ty dogadalsya ?!

Net , dorogoj David . U nas tri chempiona . Tretij uchilsya v moej shkole i ot nego otkazyvat'sya ne stoit . A naschet Levona Aronyana rad , kak vprochem i vse my .

Chto-to on "leili i Medzhnun" ne upomyanul , geroj po-moemu armyaninom byl ... k sozhaleniyu ( moemu ) . A tak , ogoltelaya propoganda v stile a-la- kommunistov . Vse pereputal i perevernul nastol'ko , chtoby sobstvennyj "narod" i zaputat' , da ewe i pridat' vid , chto on to i est' tot samyi znatok-uchennyj ... i kak gramotno pishet . Preedstav'te kak gordyatsya im ego sograzhdane , navernoe i na Nobelevskuyu premiyu ego predstavit' zahotyat . Pervyi parnokopytnyj Laureat Nobelevskoj Premii . I Kak hochet prizh-sya k evreyam , Chingiz - hanu , Persam , Turkam i t.d. Vo istinu "SUPPR LUUDII" ... Moderatory moi vam dobryj sovet : Otkroite pozhalujsta temu "Mashtagi 2005 " i vse eti paskvili bez suda i sledstviya stav'te k stenke , oj izvinite , doske pocheta etogo slavnogo , navernoe starejshego i ponyne dejstvuyushego zavedeniya sosedej . A u nas kogda plohoe nastroenie , budem zahodit' k nim v gosti , chitat' i ... vozvrashat' sebe horoshee nastroenie .

For ordinary situations - not , maybe ... But Genocide is not ordinary case whatsoever , so we know it and turks know it and British Petroleum along with anybody else , know it too ... There is no emotions , there is just effort from opponent's side to rationalize ( justify ) their "mistake" . So ...

Spasibo za takie vseob'emlyushie neskol'ko postov ot vas , uvazhaem-yi (aya , oe ) "sikil" . A vot teper' s takoj zhe userdnost'yu syad'te i naidite chto-to horoshee pro ... sebya . U teh uvazhaemyh "muzhej" , kotorych Vy zdes' postirovali , navernoe byli kakie to problemy s armyanami v biznese naprimer , a eto ochen' ser'eznyj vid zanyatij , i legche vesti delo s tem kogo mozhesh' "kinut'" , chem s armyaninom , kotoryj dazhe pod strahom smerti v te to vremena , vse zhe ne daval sebya provesti . A voobshe ochen' interesen Vash obraz myshleniya , esli ne lyubite nas , pishite ot svoego imeni , eto normal'no , Bog Vam sud'ya , a ne to cto pisali 200 i bolee let tomu nazad . Popahivaet , tol'ko ot Vas daleko ne aristokraticheskoi tuchlyatinoj . S uvazheniem , SamvelT .

The analogy , I used in the case of the US is a hysteria or plain nervousness from american side , as well as turkish side . That cosntant effort to make everyone around to believe , the Genocide is not a Genocide , but some form of progress . In other words both parties are trying to rationalize their past deeds , with economical (military , political ) reverances toward international opinion . Yes I'm an idealist , but i do not think that it's worse than being a cynisist even about a politics and moreover about a history . And when You have an idealist on one side and sinic ( or pragmatist ) on the other , it is not the best match for a intelligent conversation , wich both sides realize right away . In politics is good to be very well educated , not only "smart" and not only "good actor" . At the end , i would like to thank You , for very intelligent conversation . I hope more people in Turkey will try to get (truly) to the point that You already reached , i.e. understand opponents mind .

A pochemu rasist , a ne normal'nyj chelovek ? Ty by luchshe prosmotrel ih posty i pokrasnel ... A v gosti ty zovi ne menya , a etih kretinov svoih sorodichej , u kotoryh slovo namus otsutstvuet naproch' . Pozovi ih i ob'yasni svoej sem'e chto oni takogo geroicheskogo delayut dlya svoego naroda , da ne zabud' pokazat' fotografii s etogo saita svoim blizkim i znakomym , posadi za svoj stol ego , ugosti , da i ne zabud' sfotografirovat'sya s nim na pamyat' . I voobshe moi post otnosilsya k nim ( kretinam) , kto uzhe sebya proyavil tak podlo . A s normal'noj publikoj ya obshayus' normal'no . A Zemlya vse ravno kruglaya . Vse pretenzii po povodu etoi frazy , adresuj ne mne , a Koperniku ...