В Игдыре обнаружено захоронение

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Ну-ну! Оказывается мы убили 2,5 млн. турок! Странно-странно, официально публикуемые потери Турции за весь период мировой войны это 361 тыс. чел.

Потери в Первой Мировой войне не связаны со внутренними конфликтами.

[Vigen]

Потери в Первой Мировой войне не связаны со внутренними конфликтами.

он имел ввиду что сколько всего турок погибло во времен Первой Мировой войне т.е. в эти года

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он имел ввиду что сколько всего турок погибло во времен Первой Мировой войне т.е. в эти года

Ты-то откуда знаешь, что он имел в виду?

[Vigen]

потому что я понял в отличии от тебя

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потому что я понял в отличии от тебя

Такое невозможно, потому что Турция официльно заявила о 600 000 погибших при депортации армян. А это - гражданские потери, а не военные и в число 361 тыс. человек они не входят. Следовательно, не входит и количество убитых армянами мусульман.

[Артём Карабекян]

,Jul 1 2003, 20:31] Потери в Первой Мировой войне не связаны со внутренними конфликтами.

Неужель? А по-моему связано и напрямую - турки ведь утверждают, что за весь период ведения боевых действий армянские бригады русской армии ублили то ли 1,5, то ли 2,5 миллиона турок, значит потери эти были понесены непосредственно в ходе ведения войны. Эти цифры должны были фигурировать в официальных турецких документах ещё с самого основания Ататюрком турецкой республики, хотя бы потому, что столько турок не гибло ещё ни в один период истории.

[[a]]

В таком случае турки бы включили и 600 000 погибших при депортации армян, но они этого не сделали. Значит, гражданские потери числились отдельно.

[Guest]

Я не понимаю что это за депертация когда погибает 600 000 человек

Вот вы изза Ходжалы крик подняли ну и что нам мешает сказать что была депортация?

[HOB]

To attention of our honorable guests (to be red till the end):

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IGDIR IN 1919

An extract from "THE LAND OF THE STALKING DEATH: a Journey Through Starving Armenia on an American Relief Train" By Melville Carter.

(Published in the "National Geographic Magazine" of

November 1919.)

Igdir is a town about 80km to the south-east of Ani. It was part of the Russian Empire from 1855 until 1917. It then became part of the newly independent Armenian Republic until 1920 when the Turkish Republic (breaking their own treaty) annexed the Igdir valley and eliminated the Armenian population that had made up the majority of the town’s population.

From 1915 until 1917 Igdir was a base for British relief efforts to help Armenians who had escaped from the Genocide in 'Turkish Armenia'. That ended when Turkey cut a devastating swathe through 'Russian Armenia', culminating in their capture of Baku. The armistice forced the Turks to withdraw (for a while), and the British relief efforts were replaced by those of the Americans.

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To Igdir Through 40 Miles of Desolation

A war-battered motor of American body, Russian tires, and second-hand parts from every country in the world jounced us to Igdir across forty miles of flat country, throughout which mud-hut villages clustered and old trenches scored the plain, while Ararat loomed ever ahead, more dazzlingly white and sky-filling, as morning turned to noontide. Cutting his right shoulder, a faint line betrayed the cleft through which the great hordes of refugees had filed in their flight from Turkish Armenia during the massacres of 1915.

Three times in as many years have masses of these 300,000 people crossed and recrossed the mountains, advancing and retreating, as Russia threw the Turkish armies back or withdrew before them. In 1916 the refugees were even repatriated long enough to sow the soil, but not to reap the crops, which were abandoned to the enemy. Finally, at Bolshevism’s outbreak, the disorganised Russian troops went home, leaving the Transcaucasus undefended. Of its main peoples, the Georgians welcomed the Germans, while the Tatars were co-religionists with the Turks; wherefore the latter’s despoliations were directed solely against the Armenians.

The country through which we were passing revealed neither sowed acres nor cattle, nor sheep at graze: for seed, agricultural implements, and all else had been swept away by the Turks.

Once the Arax River was passed, however. one could recognise the Tatar villages by the presence of field animals and husbandry. Still farther on. the population became preponderatingly Armenian once more. And now, across the wide plains which must lie tragically idle through these, the fleeting precious hours of sowing, everywhere we beheld women astoop. in the attitude of those who fill Millet’s canvas, "The Gleaners". Had another Millet been there to study those emaciated figures and downcast. painfully searching faces. he could have touched the world’s heart with a second masterpiece, called "The Root Diggers".

"...We Are Dying, All Dying"

Suddenly an Armenian came dashing across the fields, to bar our passage - his face wild, his voice shrill with anguish. But he was not seeking protection from pursuing Tatars. as I had thought. He had seen American uniforms in our car - the first promise of hope which had passed through that desolate section in many weeks - and he was telling us of the many refugees who lived over there. among that cluster of war-demolished mud huts, starving in this wilderness.

"We are dying, all dying !" he reiterated in a kind of delirium. And, though we told him we had not bread, it became necessary to remove him from the road. where he had thrown himself face downward under the car’s wheels to prevent our departure.

Another, and a happier figure, was that of an old woman who hobbled up with a bright smile on her face to show us that day’s bonanza - a miserable apronfull of the roots which would keep her three motherless grandchildren alive for twenty-four hours more. Indeed, watch those painfully scrutinising diggers, and the way they flock from spot to spot whenever some luxurious patch is detected. and you would think that they were searching for yellow metal, not mere roots, in the first feverish hours of a gold rush.

"Dying or Deads?"

As we neared Igdir our interpreter, a cheery, affable young Armenian, who had long since grown accustomed to the horrors of this famine-blighted land, turned to us from the front seat and inquired with just a trace of the showman’s manner:

"What you like to see, gentlemens ?"

"Conditions?" snapped the doctor.

"You like best conditions of dyings or deads? Dyings is easy to see everywhere in the streets. But I know where many deads are, too -in what houses - if you like."

"Drive on !" I said hastily. "‘We’ll decide later."

The town of Igdir, with its local and near-by populations of 30,000 Armenians. 20,000 Tatars. and 15,000 Yezidis, revealed some squalid streets with but a few people seated disconsolately here and there, as we drove in. Throughout those tortuous, sun-beaten, byways no children played and no animals roamed. The air was heavy with dreadful silence, such as hangs over plague-smitten communities.

We found the children, such as they were, inhabiting an orphanage wherein one sickened at putridity’s horrible odour, and were informed that there were neither medicines nor disinfectants wherewith to allay the condition of the many little sick-beds.

Sick? Say, rather, the bed-ridden - a word which more justly describes those tiny, withered up, crone-like creatures, upon whose faces the skin seemed stretched to a drumhead’s tightness: whose peering eyes shot terror and anguish, as if Death’s presence were already perceptible to them, and who lay there at Famine’s climax of physical exhaustion. In those young, yet grotesquely aged faces, we seemed to see a long lifetime of tragedy packed into eight or ten childish years.

"They’ll all die," was the brusque observation of the doctor, who had taken one glimpse and gone out. "We can’t do them any good. Silly business anyway - to come out here in a broken-down car."

"We will see now conditions of the deads ?" inquired our interpreter, sweetly. "Twenty-five deads was took out of one house here in one day. It is a big house, or khan. There would be plenty more deads in it by now."

The local manager of the American Committee, having heard of our arrival. turned up to greet us. With him we walked through the local bazaar - rows of mean shops that mocked starvation with their handfuls of nuts and withered fruit.

The mud huts which we visited presented an invariable picture - a barren. cave-like interior, lacking one stick of furniture or household utensil, and with a few bleached bones scattered here and there. The occupants, stretched on the clay floor, would half lift themselves to regard us with dazed and questioning eyes.

Those gaunt faces, those attenuated bodies clad in a shagginess of filthy rags, seemed centuries removed from civilisation. You felt that you had stumbled into prehistoric man’s den during some great famine year.

The Human Levelled to Brute Beast

Suddenly a shriek went up and a woman rushed out of her hut. with agonised face and with hands lifted to heaven. Hers was such abandonment as proclaims that death has struck the firstborn; yet it was a tale of mere robbery. What the captured thief delivered back to her proved to be a paltry handful of roots. And upon entering the woman’s house we found, in fact, her only daughter lying dead, not yet cold, while the mother crouched dry-eyed before a tiny fire, intently watching the pot wherein bubbled those precious roots, her next stomachful. It was to have seen the soul dead and the human levelled to the brute beast.

Nearby, in the open, fifty wizened children sat about a long board, eating the American Committee’s daily dole of boiled rice. This was accomplished at a gulp: then the children scattered, searching the ground as I had seen others do beside our car at Alexandropol. Soon one was chewing a straw, another the paring of a horse’s hoof, a third a captured beetle. One seven year old girl crouched by herself, cracking something between two stones and licking her fingers. The doctor bent over, examining the object. He asked with peculiar sharpness, "Where did she get that - that bone ?" The child looked up with a scared, guilty glance; then her answer came through the interpreter, who said in a low voice, "Yonder in the graveyard."

I am not sure that we preserved our composure.

Starvation Outruns Typhus

We passed on, the doctor asking of our guide:

"Is there much typhus ?"

"Not so much now," was the rejoinder, "for the reason that starvation is killing them more quickly than typhus could."

"What is the death-rate in the villages hereabout ?"

"I will give you a few instances. There are some thirty villages in this district, and a recent census showed 2,277 deaths for a period of fifty days. Etchmiadzin contains 7,000 refugees, of whom 1,000 are dying each month. At Evgilar a population of 1,900 was reduced to 1,519 in ten days. During those same ten days Alletly’s 965 people were diminished to 612, and Atgamar’s 2,093 people to 1,530."

"In reality, the death-rate is much higher than these figures indicate. We cannot search every house once a day. The best we can do is to send ox-carts through the street each morning, so that the people can bring out their dead; but often they are too weak to rise from their beds for that purpose, and so the living and dead remain lying side by side. Perhaps a week or two will pass before..."

"I understand," said the doctor, briefly. "I also understand that American flour is not yet arriving in sufficient quantities to feed what must amount to half a million starving people. Tell me, then, what they eat beside mere roots?"

"Cats and dogs, for example. These have been sold at thirty to fifty rubles apiece. The other day a famished horse dropped dead in the streets, and in half an hour it was picked clean. And then - yes, I have seen it myself, between dead brother and living sister. She lay there beside him and told me what she was going to do. I urged her against it, but there was no bread to give her that day. And later, when they called to remove her brother’s body, his right arm was gone."

Graves Dug With Human Bones

We had taken a short cut toward where our car waited, and by chance we were skirting the cemetery. Our guide pointed thither and said:

"It is not a pleasant sight. You must understand that the Turks left this country so bare that there are not even spades. Graves must be dug with any available thing, even with human bones. If the dead has a relative - someone who is still strong enough to carry a weight - big stones are placed on the grave; but if not" - he shrugged significantly.

I asked, hardly knowing how to frame my question, "Exactly what - exactly whom do you mean?

"I mean," he answered, "the pariah dogs by day, and under cover of night - well, come and see for yourselves."

I will never forget that terrible acre of earth - the low, boulder-heaped mounds, and those others, the unprotected graves, now revealed as empty, scooped-out holes, whose brinks were strewn about with remnants of torn-off garments, among which lay vague, blackened semblance of humanity. As we turned away, the apparition of a great yellow pariah dog, pawing among the graves, drew from us a volley of stones. Then, as he slunk guiltily off, a skeleton-like man sprang up from behind the wall (under cover of which he had been stalking his prey), and, braining the beast with a club, disappeared, carrying its carcass with him.

Having seen enough, we started to leave Igdir with all the dignified speed possible, being halted by unlooked for obstacles, such as impede one in an evil dream.

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*On October 1999 in Igdir a "Genocide Statue and Museum" was opened by Turkish State Minister Ramazan Mirzaoglu. Speaking at the opening, Mirzaoglu claimed that between 1915-1920 nearly 80,000 people in Igdir were massacred by the Armenians. It would be interesting to hear what he would say if confronted with the reality presented in the above account.

[chilik]

пардон, что снова поднимаю давно закрытую тему - а что, правда турецкий памятник в Игдыре виден из Еревана?

Расположен в турецком городе Ыгдыр и виден из Еревана, столицы Армении[1], расстояние между памятником и Ереваном равно 37,5 км. Памятник установлен в ответ на памятники геноциду армян.

Это я прочитал в Википедии.

По поводу приглашения на раскопки антропологов. Тут кто-то правильно сказал, что среди армян в основном распространен переднеазиатский (арменоидный) тип, брахикефалы, но ведь и турки не все анатолиды (полагают, что это смесь переднеазиатского с каппадокийским) - и среди турок тоже можно встретить переднеазиатский тип, который встречался у этносов дотурецкого населения Малой Азии (сейчас например частично его репрезентуют сирийцы, ливанцы). Также мне кажется, что многие западные армяне были анатолидами (как пример - известный певец Апрахам Ипджиан, он же Авраам Руссо или например, Таркан). Вот если антропологи найдут туранида (как, например, актер Мехмет Куртулус), то вряд ли это будет армянин... Вообще может выйти путаница, потому что можно например попасть на представителя каспийского типа (пример - актриса Гамида Омарова), которым могут оказаться азербайджанец, курд, тат или тот же армянин (северной, восточной и юго-восточной части Армении). Как известно, в Карсе, Игдыре и Эрзуруме этот тип распространен.

вот фотороботы некоторых типов

http://www.randevu-zip.narod.ru/caucase/rasa_caucase.htm

там сравнение кавкасионного (многие кавказцы, как например - чеченцы), переднеазиатского, каспийского и понтийского (болгары) типов.

Edited June 23, 2009 by chilik

[Kars]

пардон, что снова поднимаю давно закрытую тему - а что, правда турецкий памятник в Игдыре виден из Еревана?

Игдыр из Еревана не виден. Тем более - какой-то «памятник». Что за чушь?

[chilik]

Потому и задал вопрос, ведь Википедия - свободная энциклопедия, там можно прочитать всё, что угодно