Манзикертская Битва

[Kartvel]

Как по вашему, изменилась судьба Малой Азий и Кавказа после битвы при Манзикерте (Манаскерте)... По моему, эта битва стала первой трагедией, вызванной Турками (точнее их предками, Турков в современном пониманий тогда не юыло).Как бы развивались события, если Византийцы не проиграли битву?

[Third world]

Мой прогноз таков- дальнейшие попытки эллинизации Армении. Однако эта эллинизация не сопровождалась бы повальным истреблением армянского дворянства, каким сопровождалось нашествие сельджуков. Что касается грузинского царства, вполне возможно, что в условиях сильной и единоверной Византии Грузия вряд ли бы консолидировалась в ту Грузию какая нам известна по истории. Ведь главным консолидирующим фактором для грузин (да и армян, которые переселились в Грузию) было христианство. Я думаю, если бы Византия сохранила своё могущество, Грузия осталась бы таким же слабым образованием, каким оно было на протяжении всей своей истории до 11 века.

P.S. Кстати, среди Византийских императоров было множество армян, но мне не известен ни один картвел на Константинопольском престоле. Может просветите нас?

[Vaspur]

.Vizantija bila odnoj iz velichajshix prostitutok v istorii chelovechestva,i ja lichno rad chto ona sginula,t.k.: ona prichinila nam vreda ne menshe drugix vragov.

ostansja ona sejchas, jeshe vopros,bili-bi takije gos.obrazovanija kak:Armenija i Gruzija..

..a to,chto na vizantijskom prestole bili armjane,nam nichego ne dalo.

[Kartvel]

Third world

Императоров-грузин не было, но было несколько императриц. Мать царя Георгия III была принцессой Византий, женой Константина XII (последнего) была Грузинская принцесса Елена и т.д. Между Комненами (позднее Палеологами) и Багратионами были тесные родственные связи

[Third world]

То что Византия стремилась к аннексии соседних царств- это не новость. Любое другое государство на её месте поступало бы также (включая ту же Армению или же Грузию). По крайней мере, одержи Византия победу при Манизкерте, таких катастрофических потерь, какие Армения и Армянский народ потерпели позднее, не было бы.Другой вопрос, что Византия была гнилым государством к моменту битвы при Манизкерте. Армении был бы выгодней развал Византии на несколько ХРИСТИAНСКИХ государств, но этого как известно не случилось.

P.S. Thanks Kartvel.

[Arevordian]

I agree with all of you about the dubious nature of Byzantium, but it appears that in that part of the world Byzantium was the only healthy alternative for economical and social development for all nations in the region. The fall of Byzantium was the begining of all evils.

[Ablertus]

Вы забываете, что Константинополь разрушили отнюдь не турки, а цивилиованные европейцы - крестоносцы. Они же были и единственной силой, способной противостоять сельджукам и арабам. Киликийское Царство добилось независимости не без их помощи, и сами армяне поддерживали крестоносцев.

[Phrygian]

I think Byzantium was the greatest thing that happened to Armenians since the days of Tigranes. Byzantium was as much of an Armenian state as it was a Greek state. The affairs of the empire were dominated by Armenians for over 250 years alone.

Twenty emperors were Armenians, most of them are still the most famous ones to this day.

Hell at any given time more Armenians resided in Buzantium than in any of the various Armenian kingdoms outside the glorious Empire (Vaspurakan, Cilicia, Gagik's Kingdom, Ani etc.)

Whenever there were skirmishes between the Chalcedonian Byzantine Armenians and the ethnocentric non-Chalcedonian Armenians along with Persarmenians it was always Armenians vs Armenians not some none existant people known as "Byzantines".

HAIL THE GLORY OF BYZANTIUM

[Tiflisetsi]

interesno, kakie esche narodi naselyali vizantiiskuyu imperiyu v to vremya?

Kto takie kappadokitsi, i bili li oni grekami ili vse taki ellinizirovannimi korennimi narodami Maloi Azii?

Znaet li kto nibud ob armyanskom vosstanii tondrakiitsev i kakaya bila prichina vosstaniya?

[Gandz]

Каппадокийцы (как и другие малоазийские народы - киликийцы, и др.) были ассимилированы греками к 2-4 веку н.э.

Вообще, городское население эллинистических городов Малой Азии состояло, помимо коренных народов, состояло из греков, армян и парфян. Об этом вскольз есть у Манандяна в "Тигран Второй и Рим".

Очень мало известно про идеологию тондракитов, поскольку вся информация - с противоположной стороны - из трудов историков-монахов. Считается, что тондракиты являются армянским вариантом бошлгарскопа

[Gandz]

Каппадокийцы (как и другие малоазийские народы - киликийцы, и др.) были ассимилированы греками к 2-4 веку н.э.

Вообще, городское население эллинистических городов Малой Азии состояло, помимо коренных народов, состояло из греков, армян и парфян. Об этом вскольз есть у Манандяна в "Тигран Второй и Рим".

Очень мало известно про идеологию тондракитов, поскольку вся информация - с противоположной стороны - из трудов историков-монахов. Считается, что тондракиты являются армянским вариантом болгарской по происхождению павликианской ереси.

[Celtic]

не нужно путать понятия. Павликиане зародились в Армении в 7 веке, задолго до Тондракийцев (10-11вв) и их вероучение было различным*. Тондракийцы - армянские протестанты, которые были жесточайшим образом преследованы государственной церковью, очень многие из них были убиты, кому удалось бежать - осели, в основном, на Балканах, в Болгарии. Есть свидетельства, что и в наше время в Болгарии были общины, сохранившие старинный тондракийский уклад жизни... Павликиане также были преследуемы церковью...

*Nina G. Garsoian, The Paulician Heresy. A Study in the Origin and Development of Paulicianism in Armenia and the Eastern Provinces of the Byzantine Empire. Publications in Near and Middle East Studies. Columbia University, Series A 6. The Hague: Mouton, 1967. pp.296.

[Celtic]

Paulicians -- The name of the sect is derived from Paul of

Samosata. A sect which professed a Dualistic doctrine,

distinguishing between the good God, the Lord of Heaven

and creator of souls, and the evil God, the Demiurge and

ruler of the material universe. Holding all matter to be evil,

they denied the reality of Christ's Body and of the

Redemption and considering Christ's most important work

His teaching. Paulicians repudiated the Old Testament and

held St. Luke and the Pauline Epistles in particular esteem.

The origins of the sect are obscure. It is believed that their

founder was Constantine of Mananali, who established a

Paulician community in Armenia under Constantius II (641-

68). In the 9th century they suffered persecution under

Emperor Leo the Armenian, and later by Empress Theodora.

[Celtic]

Tondrakians -- Founded by a Smbat, the sect takes its name

from the village of Tondrak, Armenia (c. 9th century). The

Tondrakian heretics rejected the authority of the Armenian

Church's form of baptism, the eucharist and marriage.

Particularly, they did not admit such Orthodox practices as

fasts, the offering of sacrifice, ordination of priests and

celebration of holy days.

[Mamikon]

Византия (Византийская империя), государство, возникшее в IVв. при распаде Римской империи в её восточной части и существовавшее до середины XVв. Столицей Византии был Константинополь - Новый Рим, основанный императором Константином I в 324-330гг. на месте бывшей мегарской колонии Византии (отсюда название государства, введённое гуманистами уже после падения империи). Фактически с основания Константинополя началось обособление Византии в недрах Римской империи (с этого времени обычно ведут историю Византии). Завершением обособления принято считать 395г., когда после смерти последнего императора единой Римской державы Феодосия I (правил в 379-395), произошло окончательное разделение Римской империи на Восточную Римскую (Византийскую) и Западную Римскую империи. Императором Восточной Римской империи стал Аркадий (395-408). Сами византийцы называли себя римлянами - по-гречески "чромеями", а свою державу "Ромейской". На протяжении существования Византии происходили неоднократные изменения её территории. Этнический состав населения Византии был пёстрым: греки, сирийцы, копты, армяне, грузины, евреи, эллинизированные малоазийские племена, фракийцы, иллирийцы, даки. С сокращением территории Византии (с VIIв.) часть народов осталась вне пределов Византии. В то же время на территории Византии расселялись новые народы (готы в IV-Vвв., славяне в VI-VIIвв., арабы в VII-IXвв., печенеги, половцы в XI-XIIIвв. и др.). С VI-XIвв. в состав населения Византии входили этнические группы, из которых в дальнейшем сформировалась итальянская народность. Преобладающую роль в экономике и торговле Византии играло греческое, армянское и еврейское население, в политической жизни и культуре - греческое население. Государственный язык империи в IV-VIвв. - латинский, с VIIв. до конца существования Византии - греческий.

[Phrygian]

Basil one founded the Macedonian Dynasty in Macedonia that's why it was known as Macedonian. Remember many Armenians were resettled to Macedonia prior to the Maceodnian dynasty to counter invasions from the North-West. These emperors pursued and placed the interests of Byzantium first and their Armenian descent played a secondary role and a factor in their policy in Greater Armenia and later on in Cilician Armenia as well. Same applies to all Chalcedonian Armenians, since the various Armenian feudal states outside Byzantium were non-Chalcedonian.

All Greek cources say they were Armenian except one shady Arab source that says Slavic (yeah right). The point is the overwhelming majority of scholars, especially Greeks say they were Armenian.

Here's what confused Slavo-Skopjian FYROmanians says now:

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMac...nianDynasty.htm

The question of the origin of the founder of the Macedonian dynasty has called forth many contradictory opinions, mainly because sources vary greatly on this point. While Greek sources speak of the Armenian or Macedonian extraction of Basil I, and Armenian sources assert that he was of pure Armenian blood, Arabic sources call him a Slav. On the one hand, the generally accepted name "Macedonian" is applied to this dynasty, but on the other hand, some scholars still consider Basil an Armenian, and still others, especially Russian historians prior to the seventies of the nineteenth century, speak of him as a Slav. The majority of scholars consider Basil an Armenian who had settled in Macedonia, and speak of his dynasty as the Armenian dynasty. But in view of the fact that there were many Armenians and Slavs among the population of Macedonia, it might be correct to assume that Basil was of mixed Armeno-Slavonic origin. According to one historian who has made a special study of Basil’s time, his family might have had an Armenian ancestry, which later intermarried with Slays, who were very numerous in this part of Europe, and gradually became very much Slavonized.A more exact definition of the Macedonian dynasty from the point of view of its ethnographic composition might be Armeno-Slavic. In recent years scholars have succeeded in determining that Basil was born in the Macedonian city of Charioupolis.

This is in Wikipedia taken from 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_I

Basil I (known as the Macedonian), Byzantine emperor, was born to a family of Armenian (not Slavonic) descent, settled in Macedonia.

He inaugurated a new age in the history of the empire, associated with the dynasty which he founded. This is usually called the Macedonian Dynasty, although it would be more accurate to call it the Armenian dynasty. It was a period of territorial expansion, during which the empire was the strongest power in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Emperor_John_I

He was born c. 925 to a father belonging to the Kourkouas family and to a mother belonging to the Phocas family. Both were distinguished Cappadocian families, believed to be of Armenian origin, and among the most prominent of the emerging military aristocracy of Asia Minor. Several of their members had served as prominent army generals, including the brother of John's mother, Nicephorus Phocas.

He died suddenly in 976 on his return from his second campaign against the Saracens. John's surname was apparently derived from the Armenian tshemshkik, meaning "red boot".

http://www.wegm.com/coins/byzantine/basili.htm

Born into a Thracian or Macedonian peasant family - probably originally deportees from Armenia during the empire's efforts to repopulate the reclaimed Balkans -

From "Armenia: A Historical Atlas" By Robert H. Hewsen:

If Armenia was strongly influenced by Byzantium, Byzantium was influenced by Armenia in return and, to paraphrase Tournanoff, Armenia gave more than it received. Apart from the Armenians living directly under imperial rule, a continuous stream of Armenians entered the empire for one reason or another over a period of several centuries: adventurers, scholard, clerics, refugees, and large numbers of common people-including the heterodox Paulician sectarians, forced to migrate from Byzantine-occupied Armenia to other parts of the empire by the imperial government itself. These immigrants early distinguished themselves in three environments: the army, the administration, and the general population.

Armenia, as we have seen, was a society dominated by a class of warrior nobility. Thus, when driven from their homeland for whatever reasons, it was natural for Armenian princes to enter the Byzantine military service, and from the time of Justinian I, we find them reaching the highest rank. Justinian himself, who fought wars on three fronts, had no fewer than nineteen Armenian generals in his service, including Narses of the house of Kamsarakan, who was probably the greatest general of his time. Thereafter, we hear of nearly two hundred Armenian officers who distinguished themselves in the imperial service: generals, admirals, officials, exarchs, provincial governors, courtiers, and members of the emperor's entourage.

In the Byzantine administration, civil and ecclesiastical, Kaisar Bardos, who reestablished higher instruction at Constantinople in the ninth century, Leo the Philosopher, who was the most eminent scholar of his day, and the patriarchs Photios(857-858, 877-886) and John the Grammarian (837-843) were all Armenians. In a surprisingly short time, we find Armenians reaching the imperial throne itself, for the Armenians not only served the empire, they ruled it as well, and did so for almost a third of its history. No fewer than sixteen emperors and eleven empresses were of Armenian origin, including Mavridios (Maurice, 582-602), Heraklios (610-642), John Tzimiskes (969-976), and Basil II (976-1025), and Armenians founded three imperial dynasties: the Heraclids (of royal Arsacid origin, 610-711), the Basilids (876-1056), and the Lekapenoi, who interupted the Basilids for twenty five years (920-944). In addition, there were a number of isolated emperors of Armenian origin: Bardanes (Vardan, 711-713), Artabazdes (Artavazd, 742-743), Leo V "the Armenian" (813-820), and John Tzimiskes (969-976), who, though an emperor, was one of the greatest Byzantine military commanders as well. In addition, there were many Armenians who attempted the throne but failed to achieve it. In the ninth century, the throne, the patriarchate, and the command of the imperial armies were all held by Armenians, and the empire was, in effect, in Armenian hands. Most of these Armenians, of course, were thoroughly hellenized, membership in the Greek Church being the sine qua non for advancement in the Byzantine world. Others such as the protospatharios John, who commissioned an Armenian Gospel manuscript that still survives remained linked to their own culture. Yet as the Armenians became hellenized, there seems to be evidence that they, in turn, added something to the oriental influences that pervaded Byzantine civilization, and, as Der Nersessian notes, these appear to have been particularly stong in the realm of decorative arts precisely in the ninth and tenth centuries, when the role of Armenians in the highest levels of Byzantne society was at its height.

Of particular interest is the Basilid Romanus II, who was instrumental in the conversion of the Russians to Christianity and whose sister Anna married Vladimir the Great (980-1015), first Christian prince of Kiev, whose descendants ruled in Muscovy until 1598. One of the daughter of Vladimir and Anna was sent to France, where she married Henry I. One of their granddaughters married the last Saxon king of England; another married a king of Poland. In this way, the blood of the great houses of Armenia passed into those of Europe, east and west.

Apart from the dynasties of Armenian origin, we know of many families of Armenian ancestry that figured in the political and military life of the empire: the Koutikes; the Phokades and the houses of Vrakhamios and Musle or Krinites; the Skleroi; the houses of Kourkouas, Makhitar, and Theodorokanos; Melias, Dalassenoi, and Kekaumenoi; and Taronites and their offshoot, the Tornikoi.

The third impact of the Armenians was in the realm of sheer manpower, whereby the Armenians simply added to the general population. Throughout the period of the Roman Empire, the Armenians living in Roman Armenia were eligible to serve in the Roman army, and doubtless many did so. After the loss of the West, however, these Armenians would have become a much higher percentage fo the total. Then, after the temporary loss of the Balkans in the sixth century, Armenia replaced this area as the empire's chief recruiting ground. The size of Roman Armenia had grown, moreover with the annexations of 387 and 390; they grew even further with those of 591. This would have meant even more Armenians available to the Byzantine army, and by the late Arab period, the Armenians are estimated to have been some 20%-25% of the total Byzantine troops. The Armeniakon theme (military province) had a large Armenian population, and the increasing size of this jurisdiction suggests an increasing influx of Armenian settlers. Many Armenians, as we have seen, immigrated to the empire as well, some following their princes, some preferring imperial rule to Persian or Arab, some fleeing the Arab, Khazar, or Turkish invasions, some fleeing justice, some fleeing debt, some who adhered to the imperial church, some simply seeking land or a new life. All of these newcomers swelled the Armenian population upon which the empire was able to draw. Not all the immigration was voluntary, as we have seen, and the Byzantine government often forcibly transferred Armenians from Armenia to various parts of the empire. Some were settled in the Danube Valley to defend the Macedonian passes; others were shipped to Thrace, SIcily, Calabria, Greece, Cyprus, and Crete, or settled in Kilikia after it was recovered from Arab rule. There was a strong pro-Byzantine element in Armenia thoroughout the Byzantine era, and many Armenians adhered to the Byzantine faith.

http://www.wegm.com/coins/byzantine/romanusi.htm

Son of the wonderfully named Theophylact the Unbearable, an Armenian pesant who had somehow saved Basil I from the Saracens at Tephricearond and had been rewarded with a place in the Imperial guard, seemingly shortly after Romanus' birth in about 870. The Armenians long found success in Constantinople - Leo V, "The Armenian" was an Armenian adventurer; Basil I the son of Armenian deportees; and John I Tzimises an Armenian nobles - but Romanus I reign saw an Armenian in the position of senior emperor, running the church, and, in the person of John Curcuas, the army.

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p98.htm

Basileios I Makedonios, basileus Rhomaiôn was an Armenian.2 Some say he was from T'il village in Taron.3 He was of a peasant family that had settled in Macedonia, perhaps of Armenian origin.4 The genealogy of Basil the Macedonian (if it be not the spurious offspring of pride and flattery) exhibits a genuine picture of the revolution of the most illustrious families. The Arsacides, the rivals of Rome, possessed the sceptre of the East near four hundred years: a younger branch of these Parthian kings continued to reign in Armenia;

About the rest, you're looking at names. Who cares about the names? 90% of all the names in Byzantium were Greek, names can be made to sound Greek or be Greek too. Greece was the official language as well as the dominant culture so most names given in the Empire were Greek. Some of the names in that list were Armenian pronounciations eg: Basil=Barsegh etc

Regarding Byzantium,

There were a bunch of Armenian Emperors in the Eastern Roman Empire. The entire Macedonian Dynasty aka Armenian Dynasty which was formed by Barsegh/Basil in Macedonia and several who were in other Dynasties such as Leo Artsruni V the Armenian, Morick Oshakanatsi (Mavrikiy), Vardan Pikick(Bardanes), Artavazd(Artabasdus).

Aside from Emperors there were Sittas (528), Buz (538), Balisarios (545), Nerses (555), Smbat Bagratouny (582), Atat Khorkhrouny (601), Vardan Pilick (711), Vasack Patrik (741), Musheg Alex (792), Arshavir Patrik (807., Manuel Mamikonian ("Byzantian Ahiless" 830.), Hobgan Kurkuas (941., conquered 1000 cities and was called "the Greatest"), Mlag (Melios), the "Great" (went down in Byzantian epos "Diogonis - Akritas" (934), Vard Skleros (976), Vard Pokas (987), Magistros Bagratouny (990), Grigor Taronatsy (996), Nikapor Tsrviz (1022), Levon - Tornick Bagratouny (1047), and others.

Patriacrhs: Melitos (360), Apgtikos (406-427), Isaak (625-643), Hovanes Karahan (loan Grammatick 837-843), Stepanos (888), Teopilintos (931-1057), Bagrat (Pankratios) (9th c.).

Families of the Koutikes; the Phokades and the houses of Vrakhamios and Musle or Krinites; the Skleroi; the houses of Kourkouas, Makhitar, and Theodorokanos; Melias, Dalassenoi, and Kekaumenoi; and Taronites and their offshoot, the Tornikoi.

DO YOU KNOW...?

That there were 20 emperors of armenian origin

Here they are:

1. Morick Oshakanatsi (Mavrikiy) 582-602.

2. Vardan Pikick 711-713.

3. Artavazd - 742-743.

4. Levon (Lion the V) Artsruni - 813-830.

5. Barseg Arsha - kuni (Vasil the I - the founder of armenian Makedonian dinasty) - 867-886.

6. Levon Arshakuni (Lion the VI, philosopher) 886-912.

7. Alexander 912-913.

8. Kons tandin the VII Bagrianorodny 913-959.

9. Romanos Vashtakian (Roman the I) 919-949. Ruled with Konstandin the VII Bagrianororodny).

10. Romanos the II - 959-963.

11. Nikiphor the II Phoka (the Great) - 963-969.

12. Hovanes Chimishk (Ioan Tsimiskhy) 969-976.

13. Vasily the II Bulgaroboyts 976-1025.

14. Konstandin the VIII - 1025-1028.

15. Roman the III 1028-1034.

16. Mikhael Paflagon (Mikhael the IV) - 1034 1041.

17. Mikhael Kalapat (Mikhael the V) - 1041-1042.

18. Konstandin the IX Monomakh - 1042-1054.

19. Teodora the II (Phedora the II) empress - 1054-1056.

20. Mikhael Stratiotik (Mikhael the II) - 1056-1057.

...that among Byzantian military leaders more than eighty were armenians and among them: Sittas (528), Buz (538), Balisarios (545), Nerses (555) Vardan Mamikonian (571), Smbat Bagratouny (582), Atat Khorkhrouny (601), Vardan Pilick (711), Vasack Patrik (741), Musheg Alex (792), Arshavir Patrik (807., Manuel Mamikonian ("Byzantian Ahiless" 830.), Hobgan Kurkuas (941., conquered 1000 cities and was called "the Greatest"), Mlag (Melios), the "Great" (went down in byzantian epos "Diogonis - Akritas" (934), Vard Skleros (976), Vard Pokas (987), Magistros Bagratouny (990), Grigor Taronatsy (996), Nikapor Tsrviz (1022), Levon - Tornick Bagratouny (1047), and others.

...that from 837 till 843 the patriarck of Konstantinopulus was the famous armenian scientist Hoivanes Karahan (loan Grammatick).

...that the founder of an ancientslatinopolsky university of Magnavr was Levon, the great mathematician and astronomer of the IV century, Hovanes Karahan`s niece.

...that the creators of the ancientslavonic alphabet Kirill ( Konstandin ) and Mephody were the sons of Levon and the pupils of Hovanes Karahan in the University of Magnavr. They created the alphabet which consisted of 36 letters, as in armenian one, by Mesrob Mashtots, but not of 24 letters as in Greek one.

... that the sister of Vasily the II Bulgaroboyts Anna, in 988, married Kiev prince Vladimir Sviatoslav, on condition that he and the whole Kiev Russia adopts christianity. Russia was baptized by Armenian priests.

...that the patriarchs of Byzantine church, in different years, were armenian churchmen: Melitos (360), Apgtikos (406-427), Isaak (625-643), Hovanes Karahan (837-843), Stepanos (888), Teopilintos (931-1057), Bagrat (Pankratios) (9th c.).

... that Kiev was founded by the armenian prince Smbat Bagratouny in 585, and was named originally - Smbatos.

...that the mother of Vladimir Monomakh (1053-1125) Mariam (Maria) was the daughter of the emperor of armenian origin Konstandin the IX Monomakh (1042- 1054). From him Vladimir inherited the nickname "Monomakh". Mariam was married with Vsevolod, the son of Yaroslav Mudry (the Wise) - the Great prince of Kiev Russia - the son of Vladimir Monomakh, the Great prince Yuri Dolgorouky (1096- 1157) the founder of Moscow (1147) - is mentioned in the russian chronicles as "Grugy" or "Kriuk", that is to say George. The church of George was built in Vladimir, in his honour (1158-1164). The grandchild of Yury Dolgorouky and the husband of the queen of Georgia Tamar - was named George.

... the lion was represented on the emblem of armenian prince family of Dolgorouky - Argutinsky, as on the emblem of Bagratouny dynasty in Armenia, which was in family ties with it. This lion was represented also on the emblem of Yury Dolgoruky.

- the icon St. George in Moscow (12)- the patron of Yury Dolgoruky - represents the Great prince itself.

- the armenian historian Zenon Glack (5-6 cc, by Marr, 7- in "The history of Taron", writes about Kuar (Kie), Sheke (Meltey) and Chorean : "Kuar built the city of Kuar and it was named Kuar after him. And Meltey built its city on that field and named it Meltey (Shekovitsa). And Chorean built its own city in the district of Paluni and named it Khorean (Korevan).

Smbatas was founded on the mountain of Zamk (Kiselevka), soon near it "gradok Kiev" appeared on the mountain of Andreev, which was founded by Kie (on the place of Kiev historical Museum). Thus near Smbatas city situated on the Zamk mountain appeared three cities - Kiev, Shekovitsa and Korevitsa. According to Byzantine emperor of armenian origin, Konstandin Bagrianorodny (948) "Russ are going downstream the Dnepr and are gathering in the Kiev fortress, called Smbatas".

There were cities with armenian names: Armen (Romen), Artan, Artavet. They surrounded Kiev. In the arabian source of the 9-11 cc. "Huddud- al - aalem", is said that precious bladed for swords and swords, which can be bended, were produced in the city of Artavet. Artavet specialists so firmly kept the secrets of producing their weapon, that killed all foreighners,when they reached the city (Roden on the Dnepr).

Yury Dolgorouky, for the first time, gave the name of Moscow in March, 1142. "Come to my place, in Moscow, my brother", this armenian pronounciation (transcription) of Moscow reached to ourdays. The russian chronicler informes: "arrange the dinner party by Giurgy's will...". "Giurgy" - "Kiurk" - this is the form of name "Yury Dolgorouky" in the russian chronicles.

V.N. Tatishev describes Yury Dolgorouky, according to kiev sources, in this way: "This great prince was tall and stout with white face and small eyes, with long and curve nose, with short beard. He was the great lover of women, sweets and drinks. In a word, the powerfull founder and ruler of Moscow, Suzdal, Vladimir, Yaroslav, Rostov - Dmitrov and the other cities, wasn't deprived of courage".

In the capital Vladimir, the city of Yury Dolgorouky, after his death in 1157, the church of George was built in his honour in 1158 - 1164. And the famous "Golden gates" of Vladimir led to it.

http://www.arminco.com/hayknet/ellib/know.htm

[Phrygian]

Here is a general summery of some of the events that led to the first establishment of Turkic (Seljuk) tribes within Asia Minor. Non-Chalcedonian Armenians for centuries were victimized by Byzantine leadership (Greek and Armenian). As a result, Armenians saw the Byzantine Greek Orthodox clergy and nobility as the primary reason why Armenia was forever destroyed and why Turks became a permanent fixture within Asia Minor.

Severe theological disputes regarding the nature of Christ, ecclesiastical administration and church rituals often flared into open warfare between Christian kingdoms of Byzantium and Armenia. By the closing of the first millennium A.D., the Byzantine Empire, instead of formulation a plan to expel Turkic invaders that had appeared in great numbers at its frontiers within Asia Minor, began to devote enormous military and diplomatic efforts in the deliberate undermining of a fellow Christian kingdom by the systematic annexation of the Armenian provinces and the dispersion of the nation’s nobility. Unsuccessful in militarily defeating Armenia alone, Byzantium would even resort to encouraging and commissioning Turkic raids into the Armenian highlands. After decades of facing severe dangers all along its frontiers, the Armenian kingdom falls into an untenable condition. The nation’s nobility ideologically divided and under great pressures decides to relinquish the great Armenian capital city of Ani to the Byzantines in 1045 A.D, essentially as a lesser of two evils.

With dire consequences, an Armenian military contingent of fifty thousand men, arguably the most effective in the Byzantium, is disbanded by authorities in Constantinople. Moreover, the nation’s nobility, again, arguably the most capable within Byzantium, are forcibly relocated to the far corners of the empire. Thus, with the fall of Ani, the disbanding of the nations military and the scattering the nation’s nobility, Armenians would never again be able to establish full autonomy within their native lands. In this manner, the native Christian nobility which ruled within the Armenian highlands for hundreds of years vanished into the pages of history, as some noble houses eventually assimilated within their new domains, others became decimated during future foreign wars and yet others murdered by Byzantine clergy and politicians.

Having effectively lost nationhood and leadership, the Armenian population of Asia Minor emigrated out of their historic lands en-mass, settling primarily in Cyprus, Thrace, Crimea, Georgia and Cilicia, thereby, creating Armenia’s first Diaspora. Without a native Armenian force to oppose them, Seljuk Turkish force entered the then Byzantine administered Armenian province with relative ease and besieged the former Armenian capital of Ani in 1064 A.D. The Greek garrison stationed within the city, instead of protecting the strategic former Armenian capital that Byzantium conspired decades to conquer, fled, abandoning the magnificent city celebrated as “the city of a thousand and one churches” to the Turkish besiegers. Without Byzantine forces in sight, what followed was the obvious sacking of Ani and its surrounding provinces and the persecution of the remaining hapless Christian population.

The security of the entire eastern frontier of Byzantium and the protection of the northern flank of the Crusader states within the Holy Land was directly impacted by the Armenians for centuries. When viable, Armenian kingdoms served as en impregnable fortress against Islamic and Turkic incursions into Asia Minor. Sadly, contemporary Christian kingdoms of Europe and especially the ever corrupt and delusional Greek aristocracy within Constantinople failed to fully appreciate the invaluable role Armenians played within the strategic highlands of Asia Minor. After the last European Crusaders fled the Holy Land in 1291 A.D. and Byzantium retired to the pages of history in 1453 A.D., the surviving remnants of the once great Armenian nation of Asia Minor was plunged into the darkest episode of its history that would last six hundred years until the founding of the First Armenian Republic in 1918 on the ashes of the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

Armenia resurrected from its grave time and again due to the nation’s resilient culture and its population’s stubborn and unquenchable commitment to Christianity. One can rightfully claim that Armenian national history is one of a continuous crusade; from being the first nation to embrace Christianity as a state religion; to the battle at Avarayr in 451 A.D.(see my article titled "remembering the first crusade at Avarayr"); to the travails of the Bagratuni kingdoms; to the creation of the crusader state of Cilician Armenia during the middle ages; to the decimation of the nation at the hands of the Turks during the genocide of 1915; to the founding of the First Republic in 1918; to the heroic resistance and victory over Turks within Nagorno Karabakh during the 1990s; Armenians have lived, fought and died as a bulwark of western culture and Christendom.

[Mamikon]

Аморийская и Македонская династии

Исаврийскую династию сменила недолго находившаяся у власти Аморийская, или Фригийская, династия (820-867), основателем которой был Михаил II, в прошлом простой солдат из города Аморий в Малой Азии. При императоре Михаиле III (правил в 842-867) империя вступила в продолжавшийся почти 200 лет (842-1025) период новой экспансии, заставивший вспомнить о ее былом могуществе.

Однако Аморийскую династию сверг Василий, суровый и честолюбивый фаворит императора. Крестьянин, в недавнем прошлом конюх, Василий возвысился до поста великого камергера, после чего добился казни Варды, могущественного дяди Михаила III, а год спустя сместил и казнил самого Михаила. По происхождению Василий был армянином, но родился в Македонии (северная Греция), и поэтому основанная им династия получила название Македонской. Македонская династия была весьма популярной и просуществовала до 1056.

Василий I (правил в 867-886) был энергичным и одаренным правителем. Его административные преобразования продолжил Лев VI Мудрый (правил в 886-912), в правление которого империю постигли неудачи: арабы захватили Сицилию, к Константинополю подошел русский князь Олег.

Сын Льва Константин VII Багрянородный (правил в 913-959) сосредоточился на литературной деятельности, а военными делами заправлял соправитель, флотоводец Роман I Лакапин (правил в 913-944).

Сын Константина Роман II (правил в 959-963) умер через четыре года после восшествия на престол, оставив двух малолетних сыновей, до совершеннолетия которых в качестве соимператоров правили выдающиеся военачальники Никифор II Фока (в 963-969) и Иоанн I Цимисхий (в 969-976). Достигнув совершеннолетия, сын Романа II вступил на трон под именем Василия II (правил в 976-1025).

[Mamikon]

Вопрос о происхождении Македонской династии

Вопрос о происхождении Василия, первого представителя Македонской династии, вызвал в науке ряд разноречивых мнений. Дело в том, что различные источники приписывают ему различное происхождение. В то время как греческие источники сообщают об армянском и македонском происхождении Василия, а армянские - исключительно об армянском происхождении, арабские источники называют его славянином. Отсюда вытекает, с одной стороны, общепринятое название династии Македонской; но, с другой стороны, одни ученые считают Василия армянином, другие, особенно в русской литературе до семидесятых годов XIX столетия, славянином. Большинство ученых видит в Василии армянина, поселенного в Македонии, и считает его династию армянской. Но, так как в Македонии жило много армян и славян, то самое вероятное, принимая во внимание показания арабских источников, видеть в Василии потомка смешанного союза - армяно-славянского. [+1] По словам новейшего историка времени Василия, его семья могла быть армянской по своим предкам; но она постепенно, путем браков со славянами, которых много было в этой части Европы (т. е. в Македонии), сильно ославянилась. [+2] Итак, если попытаться определить Македонскую династию более точно со стороны ее племенного состава, то правильнее всего называть ее династией армяно-славянской. В последние годы ученые стали придерживаться точки зрения, что Василий родился в македонском городе Хариуполисе. [+3]

[ENV]

Научитесь ставить ссылки на источники!

[Mamikon]

Научитесь ставить ссылки на источники!

Ой, ну никакой скромности . Стали бы мы дорогой дружочек,... ради тебя ....печатать столь длинные речи. А ссылки если они тебе так нравятся смотри на Яндехе или на яхо.

[ENV]

Ставить ссылки это банальная сетевая этика.

Не надо разводить дикарство.

Я тут вообще не причем, твои пристрастия к поиску армян в лужах грязи меня совершенно не интересуют.

[Mamikon]

Ставить ссылки это банальная сетевая этика.

Не надо разводить дикарство.

Я тут вообще не причем, твои пристрастия к поиску армян в лужах грязи меня совершенно не интересуют.

Интерес однако. Если История человечества - это лужа грязи, то что же человек это утверждающий, потомок той же "лужи". :lol:

ответ на ИнтересЪ.ру.