Shenyаtsi

Rebyata, ya sam nervnichay iz za etogo, no podumaite.... esli proekt dolzhen stroitsya po zapadnim standartam, to u nas net takix specialistov kto budet znakom s ix processom raboti. Ya ne dumay, chto na stroitelstvo zdaniya, trebuetsya 10 chelovek. Na mnogo bolshe, ne tak? Mozhet eti 10 kak raz taki te kto budut govorit' rabochim kak i chto delat'? Prorabi svoego roda?

Это утопия смотреть в будущее, не оборачиваясь на историю. Это игра в жмурки. История, это не то что наука, это инфорамция, которую надо использовать, чтобы предсказать будущее. Тебя лично никто не обвинял не в чём. Тебе пытаються объяснить, приглашают тебе подняться на нашу колокольню, а ты упорно не хочешь этого понять.... Тема к сожалению закрыта. Если у кого-то появится желание продолжить эту тему, обращайтесь по ПМ или в темах Offtop (в Политике или Книга жалоб и предложений).

В ДИаспоре это прекрасно все понимают. Волнаваться петкачи, тем более пень чка....

самое главное, что в кране есть вода, остальное ерунда....

Рафик, мой братик Celtic, говорит об истории. Ты хочешь посмотреть вперёд, не оборачиваясь назад. Но так невозможно. Celtic хочет сказать (может немного эмоционально), что если преступники действительно поймут, что они сделали и хотя бы по человечески протянут руку и извинятся, то ваша рука не зависнет в воздухе... Просто нам трудно протягивать руку обидчикам. Конечно, если думать о детях наших мы и на такое пошли бы, что делали не раз наши предки, но поэтому история жестоко идёт по спирали и мы как раз и беспокоимся о детях, пытаясь поломать эту спираль. Celtic пытается показать мир с нашей башни. Постарайся понять и может это и будет ключом к диалогу.... Не сдавайся. Ведь пришёл ты сюда и решил воспроизвести свои мысли. Плюс я тебя предупреждал, что таких тем тут было много..... P.S. Celtic jan, inch lyav avatar ones...

Как мелко стали плавать у вас, ребята. Я думал у вас макадарк немного выше .... Значит ошибся...

Добро пожаловать. Кто не хочет мирного неба над головой, тот не имеет головы..... Много таких тем обсуждалось на нашем сайте но к сожалению мы не приходили к общему знаменателю.

avjyan, если нет разницы, то какая разница? Пусть девушкам будет приятно, разве нет? Мы же HE участвуем в конкурсе красоты мужчин для мужчин.... Вот тогда действительно был бы хайтарак. А мы просто дурачимся... Успокойся, всё намази...

Юра, я не на что не намекал. Спросил вопрос так как хотел спросить и не кого не пытался подколнуть или на что-то намекнуть. ... Значит сегодняшняя жизнь, сегодняшние реалии и есть фашизм, если отбросить всё лицемерие и взять только чистую реальность?

Это не по теме, но хотелось поддержать интересную дискуссию... Корея, скоро ведь станет 10 страной с ядерным оружием.... USA им показали указательным пальцем и сказали "но-но-но, ребята... низзззя так делать, а то мы вас ...." на что корейцы показали им средний палец, зная, что Израилю они не мешают, значит всё будет ОК. Ядерnые испытания Кореи в прогрессе, кстати.

filipok (ну и ник ты себе выбрал....) Ты прав, дорогой. Конечно мы способны и найти антидот для СПИДА и найти решение для автобизнеса. Но пока мы заняты как сохранить мирное небо над головами наших детей. На это уходит около 75% энергии и львинная доля бюджета. А как вода привозная (ну та что в обмен на оружие Израиль меняет)? Вкусная? Пейте на здоровье армянскую воду, xотя и написано на ней made in turkey....

Сергей, я согласен с тобой. Конечно, если надежда (expectation) человека стоит высоко, а получается ниже уровня в реальной жизни, то полуачется негативная реакция. И наоборот. Это понятно. Но, а что ты скажешь если завтра немцы на гос. уровне признают Геноцид Армян? Как будет выглядеть твой пост тогда? ... да и вообще, все эти постинги с оправданием Израиля в НЕ признании нашего Геноцида? P.S. Англия, я уже где то писал об этом, играет роль урода в семье (семья - Европа). Германия.... я верю, что очень скоро они признают Геноцид. А вот Израиль..... да ладно, про это много было уже написано.....

Arsno, маленькая поправка с газопроводом... Газопровод мы не не можем продлить, а газопровод будут строить таким, что по техническим данным, он (газопровод) не сможет иметь способность пропускать больше чем положено (чтобы не было возможности продать что-то за пределы...). Армения выбрала для этого проекта самый худший вариант для будущего. Понятно, что Россия тут положила свою лапу и все полтические и экономические интересы должны были удовлетворить обе стороны (Армению и Россию). Но пропускаемую способность газа, можно было бы регулировать не диаметром трубы, а каким нибудь маломощными насосами к примеру. Если завтра что-то измениться и у нас появиться возможность продавать газ в Европу к примеру, то новую трубу строить с бОльшим диаметром, будет намного труднее, чем заменить к примеру насосы для давления. Короче, наши не продумали хотя бы на ход вперёд с этим делом..... Очень жаль. Опять живём сегодняшним днём.... Пора уже научиться в завтра смотреть... Но это всё не по теме... хотел чтобы всем было понятно, что происходит с этим проектом, который очень важен для нас... раз ты его уже затронул тут...

Юра, Rouna пишет о том, что фашизм и общечеловеческие ценности несовместимы. Что тут не понятно? На одной чаше весов сидит ребёнок (ЧЕЛОВЕК), на другой чаше стоит палач с его "идеями". Фашизм это просто идеология. Больная это идея или здоровая, каждый может воcпринимать это по своему. Библия тоже написана одна, а посмотри сколько толков существует. Поэтому спорить на эту тему, всё равно что спорить о вкусах. Для фашиста ценностью считается сама идея фашизма, для нормального человека нет. Почему Вы так не хотите понять этого? Rouna который раз ставит вам прямой вопрос, чтобы понять как Вы смотрите на эти весы, что для Вас дороже (какая чаша весов), я Вы упрямо уходите от ответа.

V takix sluchayax prixodit na um pogovorka russkaya o michashei korove....

Если будешь приходить то до Июля не дойдёшь, наверное только к Сентябрю около Польши будешь. Успользуй транспорт, так быстрее будет.... А может мост через Аляску уже построили? Как приходить будешь, дорогой? Интересно ведь, поделись....

..published as an op-ed in Pakistani Daily. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...20-5-2005_pg3_4 Friday, May 20, 2005 VIEW: Turkey, Armenia, and the burden of memory Charles Tannock [R&I Note: Tannock is a Conservative MEP representing Greater London. For more information see http://www.charlestannock.com ] The European Parliament is pressing for Turkish recognition of the Armenian genocide. It is also calling for an end to the trade embargo by Turkey and its close ally Azerbaijan against the Republic of Armenia, a reopening of frontiers, and a land-for-peace deal to resolve the territorial dispute over Nagorno Karabakh in Azerbaijan and safeguard its Armenian identity All wars end, eventually. But memories of atrocity never seem to fade, as the anti-Japanese riots now taking place in China remind us. The 90th anniversary of the Armenian massacres of 1915, ordered by the ruling Young Turks of the Ottoman Empire and carried out by the Kurds, is another wound that will not heal, but one that must be treated if Turkey’s progress toward European Union membership is to proceed smoothly. It is believed that the Armenian genocide inspired the Nazis in their plans for the extermination of Jews. However, in comparison with the Holocaust, most people still know little about this dark episode. Indeed, it is hard for most of us to imagine the scale of suffering and devastation inflicted on the Armenian people and their ancestral homelands. But many members of today’s thriving global Armenian Diaspora have direct ancestors who perished, and carry an oral historical tradition that keeps the memories burning. It is particularly ironic that many Kurds from Turkey’s southeastern provinces, having been promised Armenian property and a guaranteed place in heaven for killing infidels, were willingly complicit in the genocide. They later found themselves on the losing end of a long history of violence between their own separatist forces and the Turkish army, as well as being subjected to an ongoing policy of discrimination and forced assimilation. Historically, the ancient Christian Armenians were amongst the most progressive people in the East, but in the nineteenth century Armenia was divided between the Ottoman Empire and Russia. Sultan Abdulhamit II organised the massacres of 1895-97 but it was not until the spring of 1915, under the cover of the World War I, that the Young Turks’ nationalistic government found the political will to execute a true genocide. Initially, Armenian intellectuals were arrested and executed in public hangings in groups of 50 to 100. Ordinary Armenians were thus deprived of their leaders, and soon after were massacred. Many were burnt alive. Approximately 500,000 were killed in the last seven months of 1915, with the majority of the survivors deported to desert areas in Syria, where they died from either starvation or disease. It is estimated that 1.5 million people perished. Recently, the Armenian Diaspora has been calling on Turkey to face up to its past and recognise its historic crime. Turkey’s official line remains that the allegation is based on unfounded or exaggerated claims, and that the deaths that occurred resulted from combat against Armenians collaborating with invading Russian forces during the World War I, or as a result of disease and hunger during the forced deportations. Moreover, the local Turkish population allegedly suffered similar casualties. Turkey thus argues that the charge of genocide is designed to besmirch Turkey’s honour and impede its progress towards EU accession. There are also understandable fears that diverging from the official line would trigger a flood of compensation claims, as occurred against Germany. For many politicians, particularly in America, there is an unwillingness to upset Turkey without strong justification, given its record as a loyal NATO ally and putative EU candidate country. But, despite almost half a century of membership in the Council of Europe — ostensibly a guardian of human rights, including freedom of speech and conscience — Turkey still punishes as crime against national honour any suggestion that the Armenian genocide is an historic truth. Fortunately, this article of Turkey’s penal code is now due for review and possible repeal. Indeed, broader changes are afoot in Turkey. The press and government, mindful of the requirements of EU membership, are finally opening the sensitive Armenian issue to debate. Even Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, under increasing EU pressure as accession negotiations are due to begin this October, has agreed to an impartial study by academic historians, although he has reiterated his belief that the genocide never occurred. In France, the historical occurrence of the Armenian genocide is enshrined in law, and denial of its occurrence is regarded in the same way as Holocaust denial. The European Parliament is pressing for Turkish recognition of the Armenian genocide. It is also calling for an end to the trade embargo by Turkey and its close ally Azerbaijan against the Republic of Armenia, a reopening of frontiers, and a land-for-peace deal to resolve the territorial dispute over Nagorno Karabakh in Azerbaijan and safeguard its Armenian identity. Armenia, an independent country since 1991, remains dependent on continued Russian protection, as was the case in 1920 when it joined the Soviet Union rather than suffer further Turkish invasion. This is not healthy for the development of Armenia’s democracy and weak economy. Nor does Armenia’s continued dependence on Russia bode well for regional co-operation, given deep resentment of Russian meddling in neighbouring Georgia and Azerbaijan. There is only one way forward for Turkey, Armenia, and the region. The future will begin only when Turkey — like Germany in the past and Serbia and Croatia now — repudiates its policy of denial and faces up to its terrible crimes of 1915. Only then can the past truly be past. — DT-PS Charles Tannock is chairman of the European Parliament’s Human Rights Committee

ARMENIA THIS WEEK Monday, May 23, 2005 In this issue: Yerevan scholar urges renewed Diaspora focus on repatriation Officials see "movement forward" in Karabakh peace talks Washington Times Op-ed by Amb. Markarian on Turkey YEREVAN SCHOLAR URGES RENEWED DIASPORA FOCUS ON REPATRIATION A growing number of individual Armenians are immigrating to Armenia and both the Armenian government and Diaspora leaders should focus on ways to encourage this process, the American University of Armenia Political Science Professor Armen Aivazian argued at a roundtable discussion hosted last week by the Armenian Assembly of America in Washington, DC. Aivazian, who is also a researcher at the Matenadaran Institute of Ancient Manuscripts and is involved in non-government anti-corruption efforts in Armenia, is currently on a speaking tour of Armenian communities throughout the United States. Aivazian reported that thousands of Diaspora Armenians from the Middle East as well as the United States and other countries have moved to Armenia since independence, and argued more would resettle should there be an organized campaign to promote the process. Aivazian said that Armenia’s economy has sufficiently stabilized to provide new arrivals with relatively comfortable living and opportunities for personal growth, absent for much of the 1990s. The period following the 1988 earthquake, economic disruption caused by the fall of the Soviet Union and blockades by Azerbaijan and Turkey, witnessed a country-wide energy crisis, economic standstill, deteriorating standards of living and resultant permanent and temporary emigration of up to a million people from Armenia. Official figures show that following four years of double-digit growth, Armenia’s Gross Domestic Product has recovered to the level of the late 1980s, and the economy grew by eight percent in the first four months of this year. Last year, for the first time in more than a decade, more people moved to Armenia than left the country. Aivazian noted that the large-scale emigration of the 1990s will have a lasting negative effect on Armenia’s demographics and argued that repatriation is the only available remedy. Armenia’s current population stands at just over three million, with an estimated five million ethnic Armenians living in the Diaspora, primarily in Russia, the United States, Europe and the Middle East, a majority of them descendants of victims of the Armenian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey. Aivazian stressed that only through prioritizing the issue of repatriation, including creation of high-profile dedicated structures in both Armenia and Diaspora, can Armenia’s population grow at a robust rate to reach four million by 2025 and six million by 2050, for the country to be able to face pressing national security challenges. (Sources: Mediamax 3-23; Armenia This Week 4-25; Arminfo 5-20; R&I Report 5-20) OFFICIALS SEE “MOVEMENT FORWARD” IN KARABAKH PEACE TALKS Both Armenian and Azerbaijani officials made upbeat statements, following more than two-hour talks between Presidents Robert Kocharian and Ilham Aliyev at the Council of Europe summit held in Warsaw, Poland last week. But officials made differing interpretations of what was discussed at the meeting. Azerbaijan’s Foreign Minister Elmar Mamedyarov claimed that the sides discussed a “timetable” for the Armenian withdrawal from the formerly Azeri-populated districts outside Nagorno Karabakh’s Soviet-era borders. Azerbaijan has long insisted on unilateral Armenian compromises, but both the Armenian and Nagorno Karabakh leaders maintain that all contentious issues can be resolved as part of a package settlement. Armenia’s Foreign Ministry rejected the Azeri claim that withdrawals were discussed, with Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian noting “small movement forward” on the status issue, which will now allow for further talks between the two sides on the ministerial level. Oskanian and Mamedyarov are expected to resume their talks, dubbed the “Prague Process,” after the French, Russian and U.S. mediators, working under the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) umbrella, visit the region some time in July. In the meantime, Nagorno Karabakh’s Deputy Foreign Minister Masis Mailian noted that last month’s statement by the OSCE mediators, which urged an end to continued war rhetoric and called for a renewed commitment to the 11-year ceasefire, has had a positive impact on the situation along the Line of Contact between Karabakh Armenian and Azeri forces. In March, Mailian accused Azeri forces of moving their positions closer to Karabakh’s leading to an increase in cease-fire violations. Mailian also urged the OSCE to beef up its monitoring presence, currently limited to monthly inspections by several unarmed observers. (Sources: Armenia This Week 4-19; Mediamax 5-13; Eurasianet.org 5-20) Note to Readers: Armenia This Week will not be issued next week due to the Memorial Day holiday. Publication will resume the week of June 6. Visit http://www.aaainc.org/ArTW/archive.php for archive dating back to 1997. Washington Times Op-Ed: A promising start? By Tatoul Markarian Published May 15, 2005 As the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide approached last month, Turkish Prime Minister Receip Tayyip Erdogan came up with an initiative in a letter to Armenian President Robert Kocharian, proposing creation of a joint commission to address the history. In response, Mr. Kocharian called on Turkey to establish diplomatic relations and open its border with Armenia without preconditions, and to form an intergovernmental commission to address all bilateral concerns. No matter how unconventional this type of public communication may be between leaders of two neighboring nations, it is tempting to see if Turkey may really open up for serious dialog. Mr. Erdogan's initiative, assuming its sincere aim is normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations, still raises many questions. A genuine effort by the Turkish government to allow the Turkish scholars to investigate the dark chapters of Turkish history would be worthy, though much belated. Such a move by the Turkish government would undoubtedly be applauded by our nations' true friends, as it would indeed begin a process of alleviating the burden of history in our region. Armenia would be the first to welcome such a move by the Turkish government. This would allow Turkish scholars to reveal the truth and help its political leadership accept and condemn it. Let us hope, however, that Prime Minister Erdogan's call to concentrate on addressing the past will not deflect from addressing pressing issues of the present and the future and that this will not deepen still further the division on both sides about what happened in 1915. Yet, as long as there are political taboos and legal obstacles to the free discussion and comprehension of this issue in Turkey, including criminal penalties in the new Turkish Penal Code for mere assertion of the term genocide, any investigation mandated by the Turkish government will have a pre-determined outcome. A Turkish newspaper, Zaman, noted on April 23 that the Turkish Government should "lift all legal and other obstacles to the free investigation, discussion, and comprehension of 'What happened in 1915?' " Also, we witness the dangerous temptation of modern-day Turkish officials to present the extermination of the Ottoman Empire's Armenian population as a result of World War I. We want to remind all that it was the exact hope, argument and calculation of the perpetrators that the massacres and deportations of Armenians would pass unnoticed under the cover of World War I. Neither war nor anything else can explain or justify the murder of 1.5 million innocent Armenian children, women, and men in the Ottoman Turkey. Turkish officials claim Armenians alone define the history of those days. First, the historical record is both rich and well-documented. The process for establishing the truth started in the wake of World War I, as the Turkish military tribunal sentenced the perpetrators of the massacres and deportation of Armenians to the death penalty in 1919. That fact is deliberately bypassed by governments in modern-day Turkey. This process has progressed very far, especially in the last decade, with a growing number of countries properly recognizing and strongly condemning the events of 90 years ago. Turkey coming to terms with its past has become a test of its willingness to embrace human rights and fundamental values. And it is Turkey that is "missing the bus," at a cost of credibility and time. Second, we should not be blamed for defining the history alone: Ever since its independence, Armenia has consistently proposed, without preconditions, establishing diplomatic relations, opening the border and allowing the people to interact freely, thus helping create the proper environment for a discussion of all issues of bilateral importance. However, Turkey's denial of history has not been the only problem. Turkey has persistently refused to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia, imposed a blockade on the Turkish-Armenian border and prioritized ethnic solidarity with Azerbaijan over Turkey's international obligations, instead of helping settle the Nagorno Karabakh conflict. Thus, Turkey's rejection of not only the past but also the present left Armenians with no choice but to pursue its quest for justice -- both historical and contemporary -- within the international framework. Armenia is firm on its intent to seize on the opportunity presented by the exchange between our two countries' leaders. However, caution is also inspired by the fact Prime Minister Erdogan's letter was hurriedly circulated to European capitals and the United States Congress prior to the April 24 Commemoration Day and even before Armenian President Kocharian had an opportunity to respond formally. This left an impression the initiative may not have been mainly directed at Armenia. Could it have been a tactical maneuver intended to upstage the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, or to sidetrack European and other inquiries? We are interested in concrete steps and results, never in a vague process for the sake of process. That is why we proposed and are proposing again the establishment without preconditions of normal relations between Armenia and Turkey. As President Kocharian mentioned in his reply, that will allow an intergovernmental commission to meet and discuss any and all outstanding issues between our nations, with the aim of resolving them and reaching an understanding. Tatoul Markarian is the ambassador of Armenia to the United States.

Почему никак. Можно и 9-го тоже встретиться. Но пока 6-го будем там в ресторане возле Детского Мира, а там дальше договоримся.

Узбекистан же вышел из этого совсем недавно. Зачем это надо нам, тем более с такими членами? И как же они будут решать вопросы за нас? И вообще какие вопросы они решают в этом ГУАМе?

Chitay i drozh po telu.... blyaxa-muxa..... Jan Hayer, Jan Hayastan.... Miacum!!!

Ot kogo Sashik?

Если турков примут в Европу, значит она должна будет отркыть свои границы с Арменией, что в наших интересах (экономических). Другими словами, турки будут идти по тому пути, по которому Армения хочет, т.е. открытие границ без предусловий. Вопрос Геноцида и Арцаха при этом будет стоять в стороне. АР летит фанерой, и турки в вопросе с Арцахом идут в пас со своей блокадой и вообще как игрок в этом вопросе. Сидеть в Европейском доме и диктовать свои условия они уже не смогут. Европейцы траву не кушают. Подитожив всё это получается, что мы должны помочь туркам войти в ЕС, при одном условии - Европейцы не должны иметь двойных стандартов для своих членов в любых вопросах (хороший пример смертная казнь). Так что, нам выгодно (повторяю ВЫГОДНО) чтобы турки вошли в ЕС. А то, что мы обсуждаем, имеют ли право такие как турки сидеть за одним столом с людьми, это совсем другая тема... ну скажем если был бы у нас раздел "Человек и его развитие" или "Эволюция человека" то это был бы подходящим разделом для такого рода дискуссий.

Спасибо

Арцах присоединяется к поздравлениям